A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 4)

[JonClarke]

Colin, you wrote:<br /><br />"How one can study all these many many images for weeks on end, as we all have done now, and not see the simple relations to massive hardened mud structures, formed from geothermal and hot mud eruptions/flows, with later reshaping and erosion by subsequent mud eruptions/flows and tidal sea action -- I will never understand. The flat sedimentry plains and wealth of serpentine and curved forms and the fluvial fans are all there to see. <br /><br />People have not the eyes to see. These landforms look nothing like mesas and buttes on Earth. The proclivity to refer to them as 'stone' is simply an effort to hold on to old ideas which one learned in one's youth. Or learned in the pre-2ooo 'Mars is a volcanic desert' 'Mars always was dead' era."<br /><br />I confess I have problems with maing sense of what you wrote.<br /><br />A mesa is a flat topped hill, a butte is a somewhat narrower flat topped hill. Both are usually developed in horizontally layered materials. In Cydonia we have many flat topped hills developed in horizontally layered materials and therefore can be legitimately be called mesas as buttes. Some are not flat topped, you may call these hills or knolls instead. But they are variants of the same geomorphic features.<br /><br />I am not sure what you mean when you say they are not made out of "stone."? Are you saying that they are not rock? The steepness of some of the slopes suggests they are, or are at the least very cohesive.<br /><br />I can't think of anyone who says that Mars was always dead. At least not in the past 34 years since Mariner 9. Maybe briefly between 1965 and 1971 when Mariners 4, 6 and 7 appeared to show a dead world, albeit one with terrain softing, crater degradation, and chaotic terrain. But nodby since Mariner 9 would hold that Mars is a dead world like the moon, with only minor modification by the wind.<br /><br />However, Mars is a volcanic desert by terrestrial standards. Volcanism is probably the dominan <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Jon: <font color="yellow">I confess I have problems with maing sense of what you wrote. </font><br /><br />Now you know how we feel......<br /><br />How much longer till I can expect a comment about Fiertek, Jon?<br /><br />How much longer till I can expect a detailed response about Erjevac and Nicks?<br /><br />Telfrow, have you considered trying to obtain Orthophotos from NASA to try and reconcile our 5 degree margin of error? Maybe we could each get a set to work from..... What do you think?<br />

 

[sinova]

"Jon: I confess I have problems with maing sense of what you wrote. <br /><br />Now you know how we feel......"<br /><br />Gosh, I re-read that post to make sure we were talking about the same one. . . . Nothing controversial in what Jon said there, only what you'd hear from every Astronomy Department in the western world. Oops. Sorry. I forgot. We're not talking about SCIENCE here, are we?<br /><br />"Telfrow, have you considered trying to obtain Orthophotos from NASA to try and reconcile our 5 degree margin of error? Maybe we could each get a set to work from....."<br /><br />Let me know, maybe we can meet at a Motel 6 and haggle it over a bucket of extra-crispy. I'll even spring for the foil hats -- !<br /><br />

 

[bobw]

LOL. Especially the hats. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Telfrow, have you considered trying to obtain Orthophotos from NASA to try and reconcile our 5 degree margin of error?</font><br /><br />No, not really.<br /><br /> I'm pretty satisfied with it. <br /><br />najaB, you win <i>another</i> stuffed animal. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

The reason I ask.... <font color="yellow">McDaniel Report: Malin himself states that the measurements "are not wholly in dispute." (“The McDaniel Report : On the Failure of Executive, Congressional, and Scientific Responsibility in Investigating Possible Evidence of Artificial structures on the Surface of Mars and in Setting Mission Priorities for NASA’s Mars Exploration Program” – pp. 126.)</font><br />

 

[yevaud]

I trust you mean "stuffed" in the American, not the British meaning!<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Like I said, I'm pretty satisfied with it. Besides, I don’t have the time (I’m at a break in training now), or much of an inclination at this point, to put much more effort into proving my (our) point. I think we’ve demonstrated what we set out to demonstrate. <br /><br />If you think there are significant differences, IMHO, it's incumbent on you to demonstrate those differences. We used different photos, even some from TEM (like your IR), and each to demonstrate the same thing. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Oops. Sorry. I forgot. We're not talking about SCIENCE here, are we?</font><br /><br /><i>Now</i> you did it...he'll post the definition of science and/or psuedoscience again.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Pseudoscience: false scientific dichotomies, as expressed by inmates at mental institutions, who type with their toes... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Malin himself states that the measurements "are not wholly in dispute."</font><br /><br />In context, Max. In context. A portion of a quotation is <i>meaningless</i> without the context. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[zenonmars]

SINOVA: <font color="yellow">"Sorry. I forgot. We're not talking about SCIENCE here, are we? 'Telfrow, have you considered trying to obtain Orthophotos from NASA to try and reconcile our 5 degree margin of error? Maybe we could each get a set to work from.....' <br />"Let me know, maybe we can meet at a Motel 6 and haggle it over a bucket of extra-crispy. I'll even spring for the foil hats -- !"</font><br /><br />BOBW: <font color="yellow">" LOL. Especially the hats."</font><br /><br />LOLOL...Especially the <font color="yellow">"trying to obtain Orthophotos from NASA"</font>.........<i>THAT's a scream!</i> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />TELFROW: <font color="yellow">"I'm pretty satisfied with it. najaB, you win another stuffed animal"</font><br /><br />Now, <i>that's</i> pretty funny too. Especially from you, tel. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Data Dawgs <b>satisfied</b> when they could be doing the <i>REAL</i> science? Yep, I like Max's idea. Let's aim the great diverse Data Dawg propensity for <br />truth, science, and the American Way <i>at the High Priests of the Dawgs</i>..........NASA!!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Let's get ortho<i>rectified</i>!!!!! <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Now, that's pretty funny too. Especially from you, tel. Data Dawgs satisfied when they could be doing the REAL science? Yep, I like Max's idea. Let's aim the great diverse Data Dawg propensity for <br />truth, science, and the American Way at the High Priests of the Dawgs..........NASA!!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Let's get orthorectified!!!!!</font><br /><br />Yeah, I am pretty satisfied with what I've done. <i>"Satisfied when they could be doing real science?"</i> Nice try, Zen. What the heck do you think we've been doing here? I'm not going to continue to post and debate until <i>you're staisfied</i>. I'm over 50...I don't have that much time left.<br /><br />And name one other location where you'd have gotten this far - with this degree of work and participation - from the "other side." <br /><br />Maybe when I see something that evenly vaguely resembles science and some work coming from your side - I'll start up again. Again, I don't have the time right now - and don't have the inclination, given the level of involvement from you (not Max - I'll give him credit for at least trying to stay on task) - to do much more work. And I'm tired of your feeble attempts at deflection and misdirection.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[zenonmars]

thanks, telfrow.<br /><br />I turned 49 in May <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Here are some ideas from the TEMies that have interested me of late:<br /><br />(Bob Wonderland): <font color="yellow">"Something to be aware of in trying to replicate these Torun & Hoagland alignments that are over long distances, is that they were working from a map (produced by Torun the cartographer) that was adjusted to take account of the curvature of Mars surface.<br />As Mars is a small planet the surface curvature will have an effect over the distances of the order of that between the D&M and the Tholus, for example. Seen in a photo taken from high orbit the D&M, the "Face" etc will appear to be in different positions relative to one another than a map-maker on the surface would measure."</font><br /><br />"Bones": <font color="yellow">"The meaning and the message is as Bob suggests sort of "held hostage" to the accuracy of the geodetic and cartographic work.<br />There will undoubtably be some denying that the geodetic work is accurate when it might end up showing a sophisticated grid work around the martian planet. SO its going to be a rough road. It is entirely possible that the buried buttress is really buried or subdued or Bob might even say, collapsed. Even if it is not, there is an indication of something there. It might not hold the significance that Torun or Hoagland et al consider it to, but I certainly would not dismiss it simply because we have found artificiality confirmed with a new orientation ad hoc.<br />Along the lines of the curvature question...with hyperdimentional geometrical "hologram" grid work I have been able to trace similar things around the martian planet which lead back to cydonia using even some of the wide regional shots from viking but the whole curvature thing really makes it kinda mute. At least for now. But there does seem to be at certain constant distances large isolated massifs or landforms (arcologies?) that set a</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[yevaud]

What you need to do is take the image, and do some image manipulation using PCI or ArcView. Set some elevation points, do a linear stretch to get more data values, do a couple of supervised and unsupervised classifications in a couple of different spectrum ranges (visual, IR, Thermal, and also radar plots to reveal fine detail).<br /><br />Then you'll have some real data to hash out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Thanks, Zen... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Just for u Telf.... <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=science

 

[maxtheknife]

Hi Yevaud <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Or we could just call NASA and get the photo prints, right?

 

[yevaud]

Umm, they may well be commercially available at this point, but they're expensive. When I was in school for this a good long time ago, a single image could cost thousands of dollars.<br /><br />However, if you have any questions on this, one of my majors was Physical Geography, so I'm pretty familiar with GIS, Remote Sensing, Atmospheric Physics, etc. Only at the Undergrad level, mind you. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Zen,<br /><br />Telfrow has gone to extreme lengths to investigate the relationships between various "lines", "angles" and other drawings that have been superimposed on Cydonia images. He has presented an extremely good case that demonstratably proves that the "lines" are at least 5 degrees off from relevent features. He has also, demonstratably, proved that many lines could be drawn on known, Earth, features which correspond to the measurements presented by TEM. Furthermore, in looking at Telfrow's presentation, you can easily see that measurements can be taken of just about any area and be made to conform to just about any conceived notion you wish.<br /><br />In short, Telfro has demonstratably proven that there is no significant relationship between any features on Mars and some mathematical message proposed by RCH. It appears to me that if Telfrow constructed a paper on this and formalized it, he would receive a very satisfactory grade in any appropriate, upper-level college course for such discussion considering the limited, credible, resource material available surrounding this topic.<br /><br />So, Telfrow has done a tremendous amount of work for the thread and has provided real, hard-copy evidence that shows there is no significance whatsoever to RCH's "message from Cydonia" idea. Yet, when he rightly announces that he feels confident his work can now stand on it's own merit and withstand credible scrutiny, you say:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">ZenOnMars - ...Data Dawgs satisfied when they could be doing the REAL science? Yep, I like Max's idea. Let's aim the great diverse Data Dawg propensity for truth, science, and the American Way at the High Priests of the Dawgs..........NASA!!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Let's get orthorectified!!!!!</font><br /><br />How can you discount so easily what Telfrow has contributed? With your belief in RCH and the various Cydonia ideas, why do you not provide rebuttle? Where is your review of Telfrow's <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Telfrow has been a machine. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

No problem, Yevaud.... I've got $$$, exactly how expensive? Would someone on the skeptical side care to find out?<br /><br />Let's not cop out before we find out.... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[yevaud]

Max, in 1994 dollars, a simple image of an area by SPOT or similar could run about 4k. And they're HUGE. On the order of hundreds of Mb. Also, they're usually not in a format that can be interpreted by anything but PCI or one of the ARC packages. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Like I said.... Let's not cop out before we find out. That's all. No big deal. It doesn't hurt to find out does it?<br /><br />"Extraordinary implications require extraordinary efforts" <br /><br />Finding out if we can obtain the ortho photo prints wouldn't really be an extraordinary effort would it? Banging out $4k might be.... But let's cross that bridge when we get to it. <br /><br />edit: And I think we're talking about <i>prints</i>, not files.... no?