Alien Telescopes, Remote Sensors, and Billion Year Old Civs

[ArcCentral]

I'll offer a bit of conjecture that our aliens buds can watch us from afar by reading gravitational fields, and they don't have the delay effect of light, while those gravitational fields still only travel at the speed of light.

Just as we consider that gravity travels at the speed of light, while using Newtons instantaneous method to tabulate orbits.

 

[ZenGalacticore]

Good job with refining the title to avoid woo-woo buzzwords.

So everyone knows, it was I who advised him to change the title to focus the discussion on the subject he was aiming for.

The change was made with "our" full advice and support.

MW

Aren't you the credit hound! Jeez. :lol:

Next time I will specifically use your name. I thought it being you was explicit, since you're the moderator of this forum. At least, you're about the only mod I remember seeing around these parts.

 

[dragon04]

I kind of chuckle when I see posts about civilizations that might be "millions or billions of years more advanced than we are."

A lot of people assume that the technology gap apparently requires millions or billions of years to happen. We may well already be 99.9% of the way to all the technology that the most advanced alien civilization possesses. Perhaps, there is NO technology that will allow a civilization to "zoom in" for a close up look of another world.

In fact, distance is a big impediment. Even with unobtainable resolutions, the best telescopes or sensors would only be getting a very good look at what happened in the past of any world. And the farther away that the observed world is, the further into its past the observer is seeing.

 

[ZenGalacticore]

I kind of chuckle when I see posts about civilizations that might be "millions or billions of years more advanced than we are."

A lot of people assume that the technology gap apparently requires millions or billions of years to happen. We may well already be 99.9% of the way to all the technology that the most advanced alien civilization possesses. Perhaps, there is NO technology that will allow a civilization to "zoom in" for a close up look of another world.

In fact, distance is a big impediment. Even with unobtainable resolutions, the best telescopes or sensors would only be getting a very good look at what happened in the past of any world. And the farther away that the observed world is, the further into its past the observer is seeing.

Who was the US Patent Officer who said back in 1899 that, "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."? I can't remember his name, but it's documented that he said it, Dragon. So perhaps you are lacking in not only imagination, but logical conjecture and speculation about the future of our own technology.

Yes. If there are any technical species out there that are even only just 10,000 years more advanced than us, one can logically conjecture that there would be at least a fairly large technological gap between us and them.

Look at the history of our own technology in the last mere 50 or 60 years! How can you be so smug and sure that we are already "99% to whatever is possible"?

And if you took any of this seriously, you would know that I already stated that any alien advanced intelligences studying us from light-years away would be seeing our PAST!

And yeah, perhaps "there is no technology that would allow a civilization to zoom in on and observe another world", or perhaps there is. And if the history of our own telescoping and remote sensing technological advancement and capabilities of the just the last few decades is any indication, then any civs out there only 1,000 years more advanced than we would be able to see a lot more than we can now.

I seriously doubt that the human race is approaching anywhere near the technological asymptotic limit. You really should go back and read the whole thread. I would appreciate it. Because this isn't some dopey, amusing proposition like one sees in Free Space or The Unexplained. But it is a stirring and exciting thought.

Btw, I'm glad you get a "chuckle" out of posts about civilizations that might be millions of years more advanced than we are. I understand your "chuckle", because many such posts are 'woo woo' threads. This is a plausible, hypothetical reality, and I never claimed that I know for a fact that we are being observed from afar. (Just for emphasis, you never said that I made a claim.)

Distance is an impediment? Nooooooooooo! :lol:

 

[ArcCentral]

I kind of chuckle when I see posts about civilizations that might be "millions or billions of years more advanced than we are."

A lot of people assume that the technology gap apparently requires millions or billions of years to happen. We may well already be 99.9% of the way to all the technology that the most advanced alien civilization possesses. Perhaps, there is NO technology that will allow a civilization to "zoom in" for a close up look of another world.

In fact, distance is a big impediment. Even with unobtainable resolutions, the best telescopes or sensors would only be getting a very good look at what happened in the past of any world. And the farther away that the observed world is, the further into its past the observer is seeing.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that a gap would take millions or billions of years, in fact I'd push for less than ten thousand. A civilization a billion years older than us would know everything of importance, and they would have known it almost a billion years ago. I don't believe they would use light speed transmission (light) to see whats going on in other parts of the universe, when a gravitational field probably gives them instantaneous transmission.

If they want to see us with their own eyes, they will likely come visit us personally, which I do believe they are doing as we speak.

 

[Eman_3]

I believe and support Zen's hypothesis. Maybe not an optical telescope, but some kind of imaging technology. And I'd like to support my support by a little examination of another field of imaging... observing the small.

Microscopes first appeared back in 1590, and allowed the observer to view objects that could not be seen with the naked eye. As optics improved the resolution improved, and observe in finer and finer detail. But optical microscopes have limitations, and a plateau was reached. But another technology, electron microscopes came along, and we enjoyed much higher magnification. Recently, researchers at IBM revealed that they have been able to observe a molecule.

Traditional microscopes like the one you had in middle school science class use visible light to illuminate a sample. Electron microscopes,which have been around since the 30s, use high powered electrons to image objects in a similar way. AFMs, however, work like fingers reading braille. They use a microscopic tip to gently run over the surface of a sample and then measure how the tip fluctuates. In this way, they build a “force-map” or textured view of what the tip passes over.

Using a carbon monoxide tip the IBM atomic force microscope could pass over pentacene and image it succesfully for the first time.
AFMs have been around since 1986, but they haven’t been able to image a molecule. Electrostatic and Van der Waals forces cause molecules and AFM tips to interact, ether destroying the sample or disrupting the readings. IBM overcame this problem by attaching a single carbon monoxide (CO) molecule to their AFM tip. Thanks to quantum mechanics, the CO and pentacene molecules have their electrons set up in a way that helps cancel out electrostatic and Van der Waals forces. In other words, the tip can pass over the sample without messing it up. The result is the first image of its kind.

http://singularityhub.com/2009/09/01/microscope-sees-molecules-for-first-time/

Here it is, theoretical model top, actual image bottom.

The point is that technology improves, and what we once assumed impossible may be possible with the application of future technologies. I never expected to be able to enjoy an image of a molecule in my lifetime. If we humans are capable of inventing new technologies in order to observe in finer and finer detail, then being able to observe over interstellar distances is not impossible.

Just because we humans are incapable of observing in fine detail at long distances, it does not mean it's forever impossible. It just means that right now our technology isn't there.

 

[Antwerpo]

Interesting thinking. Yes I can assume that is the way how advanced civ's would do there exploring. It's the best way to explore because the subject you are watching wouldn't change it's behavior because it would not know they are being watched. They wouldn't see humans being nice to other species, they would see humans as they really are.

 

[abq_farside]

Interesting thread. I have no problem with the thinking that older civilization have overcome our current limits and understanding to certain technologies. In fact I hope that is true. I also feel that any civilization that can image us, can probably overcome other hard stops and see us first hand.

For those that may think we are approaching a technological peak, we should remember Arthur C Clarke

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

 

[ZenGalacticore]

I believe and support Zen's hypothesis. Maybe not an optical telescope, but some kind of imaging technology. And I'd like to support my support by a little examination of another field of imaging... observing the small.

I appreciate your interest and support, Eman-3. For the record, however, I didn't suggest that said hypothetical distant alien intelligences observing us from afar would be using only optical telescopes. "Remote sensing" implies an array of devices of observation, imaging, and detection in the context of our own "primitive" technology. So who knows what methods and technologies hypothetical alien intelligences will have at their disposal.

For all we know, civilizations 10s of thousands or millions of years more advanced than we could glean knowledge from gravity waves, diffuse radio transmissions, or even telltale spectral signatures of industrial smog to deduce that something unusual is happening on the third planet orbiting the G-2 class, main-sequence, yellow solitary star we call "Sol".

Again, the central point of this thread is: If we can observe, image, and detect so much, after having telescopic and remote-sensing technology for just a few centuries, what must other possible technical civilizations within a 200 light-year or even a 2,000 light-year radius be capable of?

 

[Russells]

I suppose super smart aliens with millions or billions of years of tech would think nothing of using some sort of super nanoscopes and hitching a ride on beams of light,its prob quite an efficient way to travel x.

 

[Astro_Robert]

Zen,

I find your idea that improvements in telescopes could alleviate the need for interstellar travel to be a good one. I am not so certain about the Hi-def part, but will grant you: who are we to know what is really possible.

We already make multi-mirror and segmented telescopes today (Large Binocular Telescope, Keck, etc..) We even combine separate telescopes into a larger effective system (VLA, VLBA, Allen Telescope Array, etc..) The Terrestrial Planet Finder is also in the works. The Laser Interferometer Space Antenna will formation fly several satellites at a solar system scale, opening up the possibility of interferometer telescopes on this size scale. Maybe we could use solar sails as mirrors in the future to increase light gathering power. If a future astronomer places a few solar sails every 60% from Jupiter's orbit that could be a 10AU scale telescope. One day we may have the technical capabilities to build such a thing and integrate that kind of data (Paul Allen will just have to live long enough to finance it ;p)

However, I think the universe would be a more interesting place if we had a reasonable chance to communicate with any postulated aliens, instead of becoming intergalactic couch potatoes. To that end hopefully, even constrained by the speed of light, they will have colonized a little and be close enough whereby communication won't be too much of a bore or a burden.

 

[GraemeH]

....... We already make multi-mirror and segmented telescopes today (Large Binocular Telescope, Keck, etc..) We even combine separate telescopes into a larger effective system (VLA, VLBA, Allen Telescope Array, etc..) The Terrestrial Planet Finder is also in the works. The Laser Interferometer Space Antenna will formation fly several satellites at a solar system scale, opening up the possibility of interferometer telescopes on this size scale. Maybe we could use solar sails as mirrors in the future to increase light gathering power. If a future astronomer places a few solar sails every 60% from Jupiter's orbit that could be a 10AU scale telescope. One day we may have the technical capabilities to build such a thing and integrate that kind of data ..........................

Absolutely spot on!

Space based optical VLBI (very long base line interferometry - the mathematical combining of data from several telescopes of small diameter to create a much larger single virtual telescope) offers advanced civilizations viewing power approaching Zen's OP. Even humans could embark on such an enterprise, given the political will, international cooperation and the money. The TPF is our first step in this direction.

I'd suggest ETI would use space based VLBI as this would prevent any interference from an atmosphere (such as turbulent air and absorption). IMHO, our own atmospheric turbulence and the finite amount of photons reflected from the Earth's surface would be the limiting factors for ETI resolving power.

Here are my thoughts of what ETI could achieve with an increasing base line, using our own planet as an example;

- Terrestrial planet (and associated moon) detection, mass, diameter, basic atmospheric composition, temperature and orbital parameters.
- Increased atmospheric composition details (minor components), continents (from IR emmisions), rotation speed.
- Detection of vegetation via absorption bands due to chlorophyl.
- Polar ice caps, oceans, vegetation restricted to temperate zones, barren areas at equator and on large continents.
- Detection of artificial light on night side indicating an industrial civilization.

We can only speculate on ETI motivations and exploration strategies, but it does seem very reasonable to me to suggest that an ETI would instigate a passive observational detection phase.

Maybe we have already been observed, classified and our existence filed away

 

[starchild218]

Interesting thinking. Yes I can assume that is the way how advanced civ's would do there exploring. It's the best way to explore because the subject you are watching wouldn't change it's behavior because it would not know they are being watched. They wouldn't see humans being nice to other species, they would see humans as they really are.

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That reminds me of an episode I saw on Star Trek TNG. Some from the Enterprise & others were in a building camouflaged as part of a rock cliff studying the people of that civilization without their knowledge. I don't think they were too happy when they found out they were being studied......Aside from that....
I can appreciate your thoughts on the subject. That is one aspect, far as I know, we have the priviledge of doing...thinking as we see fit on different issues etc...But I must say Zen, some came down on you pretty intense for having that thought that you felt like expressing. I can appreciate where you are going with that, also, would it be pausible to say that civilizations far more advanced than we, could possibility have developed their brain power above what we humans are supposed to be able to attain???...Just a thought folks...
Also, I agree with MacLaddy, maybe our civilizations of thousands of years before us did have some help. If I'm correct, it seems some of the pyramids in the beginning didn't do so well, some are crumbling pretty well ...then....the construction of pyramids got much, much better. There are pyramids of some kind basically in every culture, thousands of yrs old, some have been claimed by the jungle, forrest, sand, water,etc...'some or something' still to be discovered. Somebody got a bright idea from somewhere, and a lot are still standing today, thousands of yrs old. It seems they didn't leave the blueprint showing just how they did what they did...??
Any bids on just what we have in our lifetimes here will still be standing thousands of yrs after us?...intact...
And I agree as well, I don't think the human race is near technological asymptotic limit either.
As I said earlier...just a thought folks...we still have soooo much to learn..and sooo little time...to learn...
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[OleNewt]

Any bids on just what we have in our lifetimes here will still be standing thousands of yrs after us?...intact...

Nothing. By 500 AH, everything artificial that we built will be in advanced stages of disrepair, almost to a point where you can see the beginnings of natural topography. 1000 years out, if you were determined and dug deeply you might be able to find weird shards of corroded metal that unbeknownst to you were once steel girders of a giant skyscraper (you certainly would have no idea what it came from). 1500 years out, you'd never suspect an industrialized civilization was ever on the planet.

As much as the green movement like to suggest otherwise, modern civilization is about as green a civ as they come. We'll last forever as long as we remain here (or until we cannot continue maintenance), but once everyone goes away things will disintegrate like compost relatively quickly.

 

[WingedWolf]

This is a really interesting topic. It definitely makes since, given all the financial and logistic trouble space travel presents. Assuming life is abundant in the universe, ET cultures would be smart to observe from afar rather than travelling all over the universe to observe different cultures.

 

[OmicronPersei8]

The OP is totally right on. In fact, I was going to come on and make a post saying pretty much exactly the same thing, when I noticed this thread.

At the very least it seems likely that they could detect life-bearing worlds over large distances. All we have to imagine is a scaled-up version of NASA's Terrestrial Planet Finder.

One question I have, is are there any limitations based on the known laws of physics, on how much detail we can resolve on an alien world light years away? It seems reasonable to expect that if something is physical possible and not ridiculously impractical, ancient alien civs have already done it.

Additional information: I just was reading about how they could send a telescope to a location in the far outer solar system and exploit the gravitational lensing effect of our own sun to drastically magnify distant objects.

The URL is: http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=11281

I also vaguely recall an article in Astronomy or maybe Sky and Telescope discussing this years ago.

 

[Bromo33333]

Re: Alien Remote Sensing and Billion year-old civilizations

[...]

I'm not saying your wrong about the remote sensing deal, in fact I applaud your speculation. Frankly I didn't think you had it in you. :lol:

Interesting discussion! I think our understanding of physics would rule out such imaging using classical techniques (mirrors, telescopes or even radio waves), though, there may be other ways to effectively accomplish the end result we are unaware of - especially considering radio waves were only suspected when the optical telescope was invented, yet radio astronomy is commonplace today. I can only imagine the different ways of sensing a remote civilization that was a million or more years older than ours. Perhaps some sort of quantum effect?

It might take a few hundred thousand years for us to even be in a position to communicate, too. What sort of meaningful communication could we have with Homo Habilis by comparison?

I usually lurk ... so HI!

 

[tjstardestr]

The babylon 5 episode: A day in the strife - An alien probe encounters the station and prompts it with series of questions and informs the station that if the questions (advanced physics) are not answered correctly it will self destruct. It turns out that it would have exploded had they answered them correctly.

The episode of Star Trek TNG: The Nth Degree - A probe is encountered. Lt Barclay is knocked unconscious with a intense beam of light. Which transforms him into a super smart guy and he brings the enterprise to the Cytherian home world in which they study the enterprise...

Both episode used probes in some way.

 

[ZenGalacticore]

The babylon 5 episode: A day in the strife - An alien probe encounters... The episode of Star Trek TNG: The Nth Degree - A probe is encountered. Both episode used probes in some way....

This thread is not about what happens in an episode of science fiction. It's about the very plausible possibility that intelligences eons ahead of us could observe the Universe with much higher resolution and clarity than we can at present using orders of magnitude more advanced telescoping and remote-sensing technology.

Given our own advances in these technologies in only the last few hundred years, it's well within the realm of possibility that other beings, perhaps 100s or even thousands of light-years distant, and millions or even billions of years older than we, hypothetically, could also apply similar but far more advanced observational technology and science.

Please stay on topic.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Thanx Zen. Just a reminder users, this (SETI) is a science forum, not a sci-fi one.

Mod MW

 

[Antwerpo]

Well it is actually sci-fi. The search is for intelligence and that still seems sci-fi to me.

 

[MeteorWayne]

Not at all. If there is intelligent life out there, the search for it is science of the most wonderful kind.

 

[lilsparky]

Hi Zen... yeah, uhm your first blog, I can't buy it... I'm guessing no matter how great your ( alien) reception is... the f'ing amount of debris floating out there... is going to look like snowy reception on your screen... you would have to clear the area you want to look at... it aint going to happen... now I don't know how far out the hubble is, but it is just beyond that debeis field... right ? but, since I don't follow this closely and am new to this site, an alien ship would have to be postioned inside the debris and perhaps another one outside the debris to ensure a clear reception... no matter how advanced we may thing they are... I'm sure there someone still trying to adjust their rabbit ears... :lol:

 

[ZenGalacticore]

I suppose super smart aliens with millions or billions of years of tech would think nothing of using some sort of super nanoscopes and hitching a ride on beams of light,its prob quite an efficient way to travel x.

Yes indeedy! That would be a great way to travel, young Jedi!


Unfortunately, we're back to the reality of the speculation of distant alien intelligences observing the Universe from afar in super-high resolution, incredibly high definition, with unimaginably advanced remote sensing and telescopic capability.

Observing the remote Universe in high resolution is one thing; hitching a ride on beams of light is another thing entirely.

 

[Gruntfuttock]

Pardon the interruption of a very interesting thread.
Would there be a possibility of a modified gravity lens?If light can be bent quite successfully around a planetary and solar source,surely it's not beyond an advanced civilisation to utilise this phenomenon?
As to whether we are interesting to an advanced species.Well,they may have moved on to another type of existence,possibly cyborg or non corporeal and need to be reminded of their development by the study of a less advanced planet.
Let's hope they can see through cloud as it's tipping down with rain here.And we're not doing much of interest at the moment anyway!