America's Space Prize is such a scam!

[meteo]

If he can get a little charity why not? It appears that the ASP is just an attempt to get puclicity and some hardware funded by a billionare aka a Paul Allen. The meat and potatoes of this is the contracts that follow not ASP, 800million over 24 flights not the 50 million for ASP. Bigelow is trying to get something for not much with the ASP, I don't blame him he's just trying to do this on a budget.

 

[redracer02]

8 years huh? I think I remember when they first anounced it that the deadline was Dec 31, 2000. Then they extended it again and again.<br /><br />No, these guys do entend to pay, my dad actually got offered a job with them about a year or two ago to work on their space habitat. He turned it down because it was out in Nevada and he wanted to be around his grandchildren.<br /><br /> You have to give them a deadline or else it won't push the teams to work harder to get it done.<br /><br />I bet Burtan will win it too, didn't they say they would be flying a 5 passenger ship by 2007 or 08?<br /><br />As for the American companies being the only ones that can do it, I don't see a problem it in. It is an American company putting up the funds, they can do whatever they want. Companies from other countries can do the same thing, nothing it stopping them, except for laziness and lack or desire.

 

[meteo]

Rutan and Virgin are flying a scaled up commercial SS1 by 2007-2008, it's suborbital.

 

[grooble]

Lets all team up and enter the contest. If us space lovers don't try, who will?

 

[arobie]

And BTW SS2 will be nothing like it's predecessor. <br /><br />My source for that statement. 7th paragraph down.<br /><br />I take it that Burt doesn't want to push his SS1 design to try to make it work for Tier 2. If he's not going to upscale it for higher suborbital, I don't think there is any way he will use it for orbital flight.<br /><br />PS: I like the description of SS2 in the article. It sounds like a space liner.

 

[thecolonel]

<i>No, I suppose not, they all ran away . . . . . . so now we have a new batch of nay-sayers to deal with. Fun!</i><br /><br />I'll be more than obliged to be the naysayer on this one. The America's Space Prize is simply put: not possible. Don't get me wrong... I am all for progess... ingenuity... and pushing the envelope. However... there is a fine line between confidence in undertaking a difficult task and foolhardiness.

 

[grooble]

Ok a lot of you are saying the timeframe is too short, so what would be a good timeframe, upto 2015? Would that be good? <br /><br />Also, with the Shuttle supposedly to be retired in 2010, that would leave the US without manned launch right?<br /><br />Maybe Bigelow wants to tap into that manned spaceflight market between 2010 and the CEV being completed.

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The America's Space Prize is simply put: not possible. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />And again im tempted to offer people to read this page. <br />Just search for the word "possible" on the page.<br /><br />BTW, there are a couple of projects in the works that are keeping a very low profile.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"Lets all team up and enter the contest. "</font><br /><br />I'll offer up my design work on Gemini-3X. Anybody got $30 million or so in spare change to build it with?

 

[grooble]

If you have plans etc, maybe somebody will fund you! <br /><br />omg! Mom look! im dust!!<br /><br />I just read your thread on an updated Gemini capsule, it was a good read, sounds great, what exactly would it take to make it happen?<br /><br />

 

[wvbraun]

"The America's Space Prize is simply put: not possible."<br /><br />I disagree. It's a very ambitious schedule, to put it mildly, but it's not impossible. SpaceX wants to launch the first Falcon V rocket in late 2005. Considering the delays with Falcon I (about one year by now), make that 2006. The Falcon V will be 80% reusable. Now they just have to develop a simple capsule that can carry five people to orbit. They should take a good look at HMX's design for the (now defunct) ASS (Alternate Access to Station) program, seems like a perfect fit to me.<br /><br />SpaceX is probably the only small company that could pull it off. But maybe one of the aerospace giants decides to take a shot, too.<br /><br />Burt Rutan will be occupied with the development of SS2 and I think he follows his own schedule. I don't expect an orbital RLV from him before 2012 at the earliest.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...what exactly would it take to make it happen? "</font><br /><br />A multimillionaire with a passion for space.<br /><br />The most likely source to have the <b>capability</b> to do it would be Bezos, in my opinion. He's got the funds to be able to carry it to completion, and Blue Origin is supposedly already considering a Gemini-like capsule. However -- from their mission statement:<br /><br /><i>"...Our initial research efforts are focused on reusable liquid propulsion systems, low cost operations, life support, abort systems and human factors. We are currently working to develop a crewed, suborbital launch system that emphasizes safety and low cost of operations. "</i><br /><br />It appears they are trying to develop their own launch system *and* that they are working on suborbital at the moment. If they are interested in winning the contest -- they'd have to start *now* on designing the capsule, determining what COTS hardware could be used, what custom parts they need/can build themselves, and what custom parts they need to have contracted outside. <br /><br />They're going to want to perform the same type of 'bargain shopping' for their parts and contracts that Bigelow is doing for his habs. They're not going to be able to make much use of 'the usual suspects' in building the capsule if they want the end product to be the truly affordable spacecraft that is envisioned.

 

[grooble]

Do you have any info on what materials the gemini capsule was made out of? What was the outer casing made of? was it coated with any special substance? I can't find any detailed specs on it,<br /><br />thanks<br /><br />

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...what materials the gemini capsule was made out of? "</font><br /><br />The main structure was composed of rings, stringers, and bulkheads of titanium with beryllium shingles making up most of the external structure.

 

[dan_casale]

SP1 could become orbital with very few modifications, if a tether system was used to put it into orbit. The tether would also have to deorbit SP1. No TPS would be required.<br /><br />SP1 would need to go higher than 100 miles, have life-support for at least 180 minutes (45-up, 90-orbit, 45-down).<br /><br />Does anyone know what the lifting capacity of White Knight?

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>SpaceX is probably the only small company that could pull it off. But maybe one of the aerospace giants decides to take a shot, too.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />SpaceX would be in a good position, but they are not the only one.<br />The giants ( or the dinosaurs ) though, they have no incentive to compete and frankly i dont think they'd be capable of doing it. Past decades of spectacular failures would seem to indicate this.<br />

 

[thecolonel]

Bah humbug... I couldn't resist...<br /><br />Doesn't it seem odd to anyone else that the America's Space Prize has SO many constraints upon it? It was authored in such a way to make meeting the goals impossible. <br /><br />Regardless... the system of systems required to construct a spacecraft capable of fulfilling all the objectives (life support... power... guidance.... navigation... mechanical) is far too complicated to be undertaken SAFELY for anywhere near $50M in the timeframe allotted. (Try two orders of magnitude more cash)<br /><br />Believe me I would be more than happy to be shrugging five years from now and saying "Hmmm... how about that... they did it after all" But lets face reality... the Cubs have a better chance of going undefeated throughout the regular season than a private American company does of putting five people in orbit to an inflatable space station by 2010 within 2 months and returning 80% of their vehicle to be reused to the surface of the Earth... <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" />

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...far too complicated to be undertaken SAFELY for anywhere near $50M in the timeframe allotted. (Try two orders of magnitude more cash)"</font><br /><br />I agree that $50 million won't cover the development costs. However -- you think five <b>billion</b> is required? Are you somehow connected with the marketing department of a company whose name rhymes with 'snowing', or 'knock-kneed'?

 

[arobie]

<font color="yellow">...is far too complicated to be undertaken SAFELY for anywhere near $50M...</font><br /><br />Don't forget, the X-Prize was only $10M and SpaceShipOne cost ~$25M.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"SP1 could become orbital with very few modifications, if a tether system was used to put it into orbit."</font><br /><br />SS1: No -- it couldn't. There's a lot more that SS1 needs to become an orbital spacecraft than additional velocity.<br /><br />Tether: No -- it couldn't. Rotating space tethers intended to launch spacecraft from 100km altitudes are designed with the expectation that the craft will be moving at high mach values when it reaches apogee: ~mach 12. The tip of the tether itself is travelling at high mach values; intercepts the spacecraft at apogee; and then transfers some of the energy of the rotating tether to the spacecraft as it 'flings' it to a higher orbit. <br /><br />SS1 has been coasting for quite some time and is essentially motionless at its apogee of 100km. <br />A tether hitting a motionless SS1 at mach 15 is simply going to slap the heck out of it. I can't say I blame it. I feel much the same way. Apparently it will take something the order of a slap across the chops at mach 15 to knock this notion out of some people's heads that SS1 is a half-step away from being an orbital spacecraft.

 

[grooble]

My own idea is that we build a modern version of the Gemini capsule and use modern technology to reduce weight.<br /><br />It could be launched on the Falcon V too.

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">My own idea is...</font><br /><br />That's a heck of an idea, grooble. Why don't you check out this thread.

 

[the_ten]

<font color="yellow">"The America's Space Prize is simply put: not possible."</font><br />-----<br />I'm curious... Considering that you've never build a spaceship and likely know very little (if anything) on the subject, how did you arrive at your conclusion?<br /><br />I'm sure glad we don't have to depend on you for anything!<br /><br />Never doubt the human mind.

 

[dan_casale]

MRMORRIS: <br /> />SS1 has been coasting for quite some time and is essentially motionless at its apogee of 100km.<<br />Quite true. Sorry, I was under the impression that the tether only required about Mach 4. I checked your mach 12 figure at http://www.tethers.com/papers/HASTOLAIAAPaper.pdf<br /><br />But still SS1 has a better chance of going mach 12 than mach 25 (orbital velocity).<br /><br />It would definitly be a cutting edge launch system and it appears that all the materials are currently available.

 

[thecolonel]

<i>I'm curious... Considering that you've never build a spaceship and likely know very little (if anything) on the subject, how did you arrive at your conclusion? <br /><br />I'm sure glad we don't have to depend on you for anything!</i><br /><br />That was a bit presumptious... wasn't it? I'm not going to trump you by going as far as to say for whom or what I work on... but I will give you a hint by saying that I live in Houston and everyday get to witness the hard work and dedication required to make spaceflight a reality...<br /><br />Rest assured... $50M is nowhere near enough...