<font color="yellow">"...leave the larger colonies in protected zones while human inhabit doomed cities."</font><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />I hope you meant <font color="yellow">"domed cities."</font><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>
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> <i><font color="yellow">it would almost certainly mean more public support for space exploration and therefore more money.</font>/i><br /><br />Just for the sake of discussion, I propose that the discovery might have the opposite effect.<br /><br />While life on Mars may indicate life is potentially common in the Universe, most people would be interested in intelligent life and not microbial life. There is most certainly not intelligent life in our solar system (with the possible exception of Earth), and our ability to perform manned exploration of the stars is too far in the future to get much public support.<br /><br />Thus, discovery of life may spur more money to go into SETI-type efforts. More money for planet finders. More money for signal detectors. And these dollars could come at the expense of manned space exploration of the solar system.<br /><br />Just a thought...</i>
<font color="yellow">"I don't think sending the microbes to the moons would work, they probably need the atmosphere. "</font><br /><br />Um -- I was actually kidding. Little 'White Man' and '*****' joke. Although -- how you could think sending the microbes to Phobos/Deimos is <b>worse</b> than sending Indian tribes to North Dakota is beyond me.<br /><br /><br /><br />P.S. The North Dakota thing was another joke.
<font color="yellow">"There is most certainly not intelligent life in our solar system."</font><br /><br />It is <b>almost certain</b> that there is not an extra-terrestrial form of life in our solar system that is intelligent. That's the absolute maximum you can say at the limits of our knowledge of the solar system.<br /><br />Personally -- I highly doubt there are any sentient ET species in our solar system, much less intelligent ones, but I know enough to know that I don't <b>know</b> that there aren't. Making an absolute claim when you have only 5% of the picture is... unwise. If you're under the impression that we currently know more than 5% of what there is to know about our solar system -- you are mistaken.<br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">"Thus, discovery of life may spur more money to go into SETI-type efforts. More money for planet finders. More money for signal detectors. And these dollars could come at the expense of manned space exploration of the solar system. "</font><br /><br />Well -- what I said was more money for space exploration. I didn't specify 'manned'. However, I think the discovery of life on Mars would increase the size of the space budget 'pie'. Even if manned exporation's slice were to get <b>proportionally</b> smaller -- I seriously doubt that it would get smaller in terms of actual dollars.
Wasn't formeldahyde also detected on Mars? Is that also a volcanic gas?<br /><br />Are the methane, formeldahyde and ammonia emissions all coming from the same location?
Alex, quick question, In your opinion, what would be the leading scientific "Guess" for the presence of Methane, Formaldehyde and Ammonia on Mars, its implications and what we should be looking for (scientific community debates etc)<br /><br />John
<i>Alex, quick question, In your opinion, what would be the leading scientific "Guess" for the presence of Methane, Formaldehyde and Ammonia on Mars, its implications and what we should be looking for (scientific community debates etc).</i><br /><br />I really don't know, as the details of what Mars Express PFS team have found so far are sketchy at best. Until something gets published, I'll refer you to Oliver Morton's MainlyMartian blog, where he discussed the earlier methane "announcement" and provided some informative links. Click here, here, and here.<br />
According to the release they will be presenting the findings next week at a conference in Paris.... I guess we should stay tuned until then.
Good news, but we shouldn't expect too much. Reality tends to be disappointing...<br />First of all, my personal opinions is that there could be primitive life on Mars simply because it came from Earth(meteorites)...So finding it there won't solve the question if we are alone for certain.<br />Second of all -it could mean private bussines would get involved-think of it-right now biotechnology is the next big thing and people are looking for profit.Whoever gets it's hands on completely different lifeform will surely get great advances in genetics etc. So some private companies could see profit in studying alien bacteria(if they are found)<br /><br />As to the amonia discovery-IIRC methane was found only in certain parts of Mars...Could be interesting if amonia comes also from that regions...<br />And also-from what I read-it would mean only small oasis of primitive lifeforms-only managing at minimal survival...<br />But all of this could be just geogical activity.
We had a brief discussion on this on the ex-boards. I think this is potentially the most important discovery of my lifetime.<br /><br />It is harsh for AlexBlackwall to imply this is science by press release. The ESA team do nothing by press release! If the rumours of what they have found are confirmed then I would take any & all bets at two to one ON that life will be found on Mars before 2015.<br /><br />Forget your pretty rings, interesting rocks, fascinating gases - this is the big one. <br /><br />It is quite pleasing that if confirmed this will come from exactly the source Lovelock predicted decades ago. To look for life, look for the smoking gun that is an atmosphere is disequilibrium.<br /><br />If confirmed we have to go, all of us, humanity as a planet. We have to go. God I hope they are right.
I'll save you the goggle search.<br />Interview with formisano is here <br />== /> http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=707&category=Science<br /><br />A couple of choice quotes<br /><br />Q. HAVE YOU FOUND ANY OF THE MOLECULES SUCH AS BENZENE AND FORMALDEHYDE IN THE MARTIAN ATMOSPHERE SO FAR?<br /><br />A. I am not ready to answer this question today.<br /><br />Q. BECAUSE?<br /><br />A. Because before stating publicly anything concerning other molecules, I want to be sure and discuss with my colleagues and I want to have a reasonable interpretation of the results.<br />------------<br />Q. BECAUSE WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR ANNOUNCEMENT, IT SHOULD BE DEFINITIVE?<br /><br />A. Exactly...<br />---------<br />Q. WOULD BENZENE AND FORMALDEHYDE BE IN THE MARTIAN ATMOSPHERE IF THERE WAS NO LIFE PROCESSES ON MARS?<br /><br />A. The formaldehyde is destroyed in the Martian atmosphere within 7.5 hours. There is no way that formaldehyde can exist and remain for a long time in the Martian atmosphere<br />-----------<br />Q. DO YOU THINK THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE A REPORT ABOUT THIS INCREASINGLY SOLID DATA BEFORE SEPTEMBER?<br /><br />A. I don't know. Possibly at COSPAR which is at the end of July in Paris.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
<i>It is harsh for AlexBlackwall to imply this is science by press release.</i><br /><br />Reality is often harsh.<br />
Alex, If they do announce their findings next week as is planned and the factors are either Volcanic, Life or Slow Release from trapped gas products, what would be your bet and why?<br /><br />Also what would be your analysis on each possibility in order of probability.<br /><br /><br />
<i>Also what would be your analysis on each possibility in order of probability.</i><br /><br />Since I'm not attending the 35th COSPAR (Committee on Space Research) Scientific Assembly in Paris next week, I'll have to wait for the details. Sorry, but I don't have enough information to really even "guess."<br /><br />I'm not sure if I mentioned it here BTD (before the disaster), but the abstracts are online.<br />
Don't get too excited too soon, please.<br /><br />N2 can be photoreduced on a catalyst to NH3. This photoreaction requires the presence of N2, H2, a suitable catalyst, and UV light.<br /><br />I note that UV light is plentiful in the Martian atmosphere due to the lack of an ozone layer.<br /><br />Sutiable catalysts are hydrated ferric oxides powders, titanate powders or tungstate powders. I note that the martian soil is replete in fine ferric oxide dust which often gets carried aloft by winds, dust devils and planetary dust storms.<br /><br />The Martian atmosphere is 2.6% N2.<br /><br />H2 has also been detected in Mars' atmosphere. here are refernces to that
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20011129marswet.html)<br /><i>In a study appearing Friday in the journal Science, planetary researchers Krasnopolsky and Paul D. Feldman of Johns Hopkins University said that Mars' upper atmosphere contains molecular hydrogen, or H2, a finding that confirms earlier theoretical models of the water history of the planet. The H2 comes from a chemical reaction, called dissociation, that split the hydrogen from water, H20, and allowed the lighter hydrogen to escape to the atmosphere. </i><br /><br />Am I the first to propose this (rather obvious)mechanism?<br /><br />Here are just a few of the many papers from the chemical literature on the photoreduction of N2 with a catalyst:<br />Tennakone K., Bandara J.M.S., Thaminimulla C.T.K., Jayatilake W.D.W., Ketipeaarachchi U.S., Ileperuma O.A., and Priyadarshana M.K.A. Photoreduction of dinitrogen to ammonia by ultrafine particles of FeOOH formed by photohydrolysis of iron (II) bicarbonate. Langmuir, 7(10), 2166 (1991). <br /><br />Photoreduction of nitrogen and water on montmorillonite clays loaded with hydrous ferric oxide.<br />O.A Ileperuma, W.C.B Kiridena and W.D.D.P Dissanayake. J. Photochem. And Photobiol. A: Chem., Vol.59, 1991, 191.<br /><br />Endoh, E., Bard, AJ. "HETEROGENEOUS PHOTOREDUCTION OF NITROGEN TO AMMONIA ON CATALYST-LOADED<</safety_wrapper> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20011129marswet.html)<br /><i>In a study appearing Friday in the journal Science, planetary researchers Krasnopolsky and Paul D. Feldman of Johns Hopkins University said that Mars' upper atmosphere contains molecular hydrogen, or H2, a finding that confirms earlier theoretical models of the water history of the planet. The H2 comes from a chemical reaction, called dissociation, that split the hydrogen from water, H20, and allowed the lighter hydrogen to escape to the atmosphere. </i><br /><br />Am I the first to propose this (rather obvious)mechanism?<br /><br />Here are just a few of the many papers from the chemical literature on the photoreduction of N2 with a catalyst:<br />Tennakone K., Bandara J.M.S., Thaminimulla C.T.K., Jayatilake W.D.W., Ketipeaarachchi U.S., Ileperuma O.A., and Priyadarshana M.K.A. Photoreduction of dinitrogen to ammonia by ultrafine particles of FeOOH formed by photohydrolysis of iron (II) bicarbonate. Langmuir, 7(10), 2166 (1991). <br /><br />Photoreduction of nitrogen and water on montmorillonite clays loaded with hydrous ferric oxide.<br />O.A Ileperuma, W.C.B Kiridena and W.D.D.P Dissanayake. J. Photochem. And Photobiol. A: Chem., Vol.59, 1991, 191.<br /><br />Endoh, E., Bard, AJ. "HETEROGENEOUS PHOTOREDUCTION OF NITROGEN TO AMMONIA ON CATALYST-LOADED<</safety_wrapper> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>If this mechanism is commonplace, then where's the N2 coming from? Surely over the last few billion years all the N2 would have been consumed.
The problem with the catalyst method of ammonia production is that you need a very high pressure (the Haber process uses around 200 atm) and a lot of heat (about 400-450 degrees Celsius). Needless to say Mars has neither. The Haber Process:<br /><br />http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/equilibria/haber.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
NH3 will be produced by this <b>photoreduction</b> process even at low pressure. Light energy is used to drive the reaction to the right.<br /><br />In the Haber process, high pressure (200 atm) helps to drive the reaction to the right because the total number of moles of gas decreases as product is made. However the Haber process is run in a dark steel reactor....not under UV radiation ! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
"The importance of ammonia is that it is a compound of nitrogen and hydrogen. <br /><br />Nitrogen is rare in the Martian environment but because no form of terrestrial life can exist without it the presence of ammonia may indicate that Martian microbial life is hoarding it. <br /><br />"There are no known ways for ammonia to be present in the Martian atmosphere that do not involve life," a US Space Agency (Nasa) scientist told BBC News Online. "<br /><br />Why would a Nasa scientist say that unless they didnt know the possible interactions with solar UV light?
<i>"There are no known ways for ammonia to be present in the Martian atmosphere that do not involve life," a US Space Agency (Nasa) scientist told BBC News Online. " <br /><br />Why would a Nasa scientist say that unless they didnt know the possible interactions with solar UV light? </i><br /><br />Beats me. Perhaps they don't read the literature?? When I get to work tomorrow, I can search and order all articles on the subject via ChemFinder. I will update then. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
"Sutiable catalysts are hydrated ferric oxides powders, titanate powders or tungstate powders. I note that the martian soil is replete in fine ferric oxide dust which often gets carried aloft by winds, dust devils and planetary dust storms. "<br /><br />By Hydrated do you mean liquid water with ferrous oxides infused in it?<br /><br />hmm
My mistake. I'm surprised I can find nothing about that potential source online (for Mars). Of course, the discover may be so new that the search engines have not been able to update with the information yet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<i>By Hydrated do you mean liquid water with ferrous oxides infused in it?</i><br />I have to order the articles to read the conditions. Can't do that till I get to work. Hopefully I can get electronic versions immediately, else it may take a week or two. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
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