AMMONIA DETECTED ON MARS

marslauncher · Jul 16, 2004

Also what about the Benzene, Formaldehyde and Methane as well as Ammonia, how do all of these play with Biological or Chemical weathering or production?

marslauncher · Jul 16, 2004

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> sorry for so many questions, I just hope either way our understanding of what is creating these gases is finally solved, It is exciting due to the fairly (until proven otherwise for me hehe ) Possible probability that life is involved in these processes. Pls keep us updated. And I cant wait for the science details next week!

silylene old · Jul 16, 2004

Methane can be produced by photoreduction process using CO2 and H2. But the catalysts as I recall are rather exotic. CO2 can be photoreduced to CO also. It might be possible to get from CO to formaldehyde...I don't know if that photoreduces....something more for me to look up. Benzene can be produced photochemically.....from other organic compounds. I cannot imagine any way to get to it from Martian atmospheric gases. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

marslauncher · Jul 16, 2004

YAY hehe (probable false sense of excitement,) but at least one of them (plus maybe the Ammonia and the Benzene) are difficult (nothing is impossible at this point) to break down from the Martian gases. If you were to hazard a guess, (scientifically based) where would you look first for the answer? Active Volcanoes Biology Other?

silylene old · Jul 16, 2004

Well, here's a hypothesis: Maybe these gases are stored as gas hydrates and locked in the polar icecaps. Sublimation of ice releases the unusual gases. According to this idea, these gas hydrates are VERY old, fossil remnants of a time past...... And long ago, the gases were more abundant in the atmosphere due to volcanoes, or a comet, or erm...life; and then the gases got locked into the ices as the atmosphere froze out to form the caps. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

blairf · Jul 16, 2004

Interesting paper on equilibrium state of Mars atmosphere -- />http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/sixthmars2003/pdf/3055.pdf The key thing in this is going to be the spatio-temporal distribution. If all the formaldehyde is polar, all the ammonia assosciated with "volcanic" indicators, and the benzene is uniform, then that pushs you one way.

centsworth_II · Jul 16, 2004

If life is found on Mars -- most likely microbial -- there will be one more step to take before its ultimate scientific significance is known. It must be determined if life on Mars is related to Life on Earth. Life may have begun on Mars and been transferred to a sterile Earth four plus billion years ago, or visa versa. Or, life may have arrived at Mars and Earth from some third source. In all of these cases, life on Mars will be found to be DNA-based, and its DNA will show a common (very distant) past with ours. If this is the case, it will not be nearly as exciting as finding life on Mars that arose independently from life on Earth. Most exciting would be finding life which does not even use DNA. But even life on Mars using DNA may have arisen independently from that on Earth. DNA may be a given in most, or all, life in the universe. This independent (separate) origin of DNA on Mars and DNA on Earth should be demonstrable through analysis of the two. And it probably wouldn't matter if you took DNA from a bacterium or a human to represent life on Earth! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

backspace · Jul 16, 2004

"Benzene can be produced photochemically.....from other organic compounds. " And the presence of organic compounds would COMPLETELY validate Levin's L/R experiment. So, the presence of benzene would create a bit of a conundrum...

backspace · Jul 16, 2004

"Maybe these gases are stored as gas hydrates and locked in the polar icecaps. Sublimation of ice releases the unusual gases. According to this idea, these gas hydrates are VERY old, fossil remnants of a time past...... " Heh, and that's a stretch, right? It's unfortunate the way that theories disputing the possibility of life on Mars can stand as theories with less than total proof, and at sometimes just simple conjecture - and in the absence of any other evidence they become generally accepted as law... but exciting ideas such as life on mars require unequivocable proof. Either way, if one can get to ammonia via photoreduction, then benzene in my opinion becomes the serious marker.

mrmorris · Jul 16, 2004

"... but exciting ideas such as life on mars require unequivocable proof." It's generally a given that exceptional claims require exceptional proof.

backspace · Jul 16, 2004

Yes, an unavoidable truth. Not nearly as fun as protozoa at valleris marineris but yes, very much a given. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

blairf · Jul 16, 2004

Had an interesting hour scanning the abstrasts from COSPAR that AlexBlackwell linked to (thanks!) The PFS sessions seem to be on Tuesday afternoon, so expect some fireworks then.

alexblackwell · Jul 16, 2004

Oliver Morton has an interesting new blog on the ammonia issue. Note the response by the author of the BBC article, David Whitehouse.

yurkin · Jul 16, 2004

”Formaldehyde has been rumoured.” David Whitehouse Formaldehyde has not been rumored its been confirmed a while ago. You would think that someone writing a science article about mars would keep more up to date on the matter. Bottom line. We have a possible detection of a substance that might indicate life from an article that may or may not be accurate. Well that all the proof I need. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

alexblackwell · Jul 16, 2004

Formaldehyde has not been rumored its been confirmed a while ago. You would think that someone writing a science article about mars would keep more up to date on the matter. Don't get your hopes up about the ammonia claim. From the scuttlebutt I'm hearing this morning, orginally attributed to an "ESA scientist," the Mars Express PFS team's ammonia detection (or, more accurately, David Whitehouse's BBC hype) may not hold up. Indeed, some are even using the word "hoax." I'm not sure what to make of that but we'll see if this is just a trans-Pacific / trans-Atlantic game of "telephone" or, in this case, email ;-)

silylene old · Jul 16, 2004

Here is a dump of just a few of the 30+ papers I found with ChemFinder that are relevent to the discussion of photoreduction of N2 to make ammonia. The first two abstracts in this list are particularly interesting ! Nitrogen photoreduction on desert sands under sterile conditions. Schrauzer, Gerhard N.; Strampach, Norman; Hui, Liu Nan; Palmer, Miles R.; Salehi, Jahanshah. Revelle Coll., Univ. California, La Jolla, CA, USA. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (1983), 80(12), 3873-6. CODEN: PNASA6 ISSN: 0027-8424. Journal written in English. CAN 99:41399 AN 1983:441399 CAPLUS Abstract Sands from various geog. locations reduce N2 from the air to NH3 and traces of N2H4 on exposure to sunlight. This N2 photofixation occurs under sterile conditions on the surface of finely dispersed minerals such as rutile [1317-80-2], utilizing reducing equivs. generated through the photolysis of chemisorbed H2O. Abiol. N2 photofixation is suggested to be part of the N cycle in arid and semiarid regions. About 10 ´ 106 tons/yr of N2 is photoreduced on the total surface of the Earth's deserts. +++++++++++++ Photoreduction of molecular nitrogen on titanium dioxide: feasibility of formation of amino acids. Krasnovskii, A. A.; Pavlovskaya, T. E.; Telegina, T. A. Inst. Biokhim., Moscow, USSR. Doklady Akademii Nauk SSSR (1989), 308(5), 1258-60 [Biochem.]. CODEN: DANKAS ISSN: 0002-3264. Journal written in Russian. CAN 112:2950 AN 1990:2950 CAPLUS Abstract Illumination of N2-contg. aq. suspensions of TiO2 for 1-4 h at 20-22° with near-UV light (365 nm) resulted in the formation of NH3. No NH3 formation was obsd. in controls contg. no TiO4. Irradn. of a 1% aq. soln. of acetaldehyde also resulted in the formation of NH3. In addn., the amino acids alanine, glycine, and serine were formed in quantities of 1 nmol/h. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

blairf · Jul 16, 2004

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMIU7XLDMD_people_0_iv.html that doesn't look like the bio of a man prone to hoaxes. I suggest the scuttlebut has more to do with professional jealousy than anything else. It must hurt to fly an instrument and not get the recognition you *know* you deserve, or even worse come to realise that you have the wrong damn instrument! Stay tuned.

alexblackwell · Jul 16, 2004

...that doesn't look like the bio of a man prone to hoaxes. I suggest the scuttlebut has more to do with professional jealousy than anything else. And I suggest you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Actually, I wasn't referring to Formisano, who is a world-class scientist. "Stay tuned," indeed. From what I've been told this morning, Formisano is fairly angry at the BBC ammonia story. And some of Formisano's colleagues have referred to the story as, at best, totally innacurate and, at worst, a few have used the word "hoax."

silylene old · Jul 16, 2004

Here are a few interesting abstracts on the photoreduction of CO2 to make methane and formaldehyde vacuum-UV laser photolysis of CO2 systems. Nakashima, N.; Ojima, Y.; Kojima, M.; Izawa, Y.; Yamanaka, C.; Akano, T. Institute Laser Engineering, Osaka University, Suita, Japan. Energy Conversion and Management (1995), 36(6-9), 673-6. CODEN: ECMADL ISSN: 0196-8904. Journal written in English. CAN 123:270397 AN 1995:727451 CAPLUS Abstract Gaseous CO2 was photoreduced on irradn. with a vacuum-UV F2 laser (158 nm). The final products were formaldehyde, methane etc. for the case of a mixt. with hydrogen, and alc. for systems of hydrofluorocarbons. +++++++++ Photoreduction of carbon dioxide and water into formaldehyde and methanol on semiconductor materials. Aurian-Blajeni, B.; Halmann, M.; Manassen, J. Weizmann Inst. Sci., Rehovot, Israel. Solar Energy (1980), 25(2), 165-70. CODEN: SRENA4 ISSN: 0038-092X. Journal written in English. CAN 94:124490 AN 1981:124490 CAPLUS Abstract Heterogeneous photoassisted redn. of aq. CO2 to produce MeOH [67-56-1], HCHO [50-00-0], and CH4 [74-82-8] was achieved by using semiconductor powders with either high-pressure Hg lamps or sunlight. The reaction was carried out either as a gas-solid process, by passing CO2 and H2O vapor over illuminated semiconductor surfaces or as a liq.-solid reaction, by illuminating aq. suspensions of semiconductor powders through which CO2 was bubbled. Best results, under illumination by Hg lamps, were obtained with aq. suspensions of SrTiO3, WO3, and TiO2, resulting in absorbed energy conversion efficiencies of 6, 5.9, and 1.2%, resp. ++++++++ Reaction mechanism in the photoreduction of CO2 with CH4 over ZrO2. Kohno, Yoshiumi; Tanaka, Tsunehiro; Funabiki, Takuzo; Yoshida, Satohiro. Department of Molecular Engineering, Graduate School of Engineering, K <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

blairf · Jul 16, 2004

OK - having re-read the Whitehouse article a couple of speculations. - It looks like it is multi-sourced "Researchers say its spectral signature has been tentatively detected" and then "Ammonia could be the key to finding life on Mars," one US space agency (Nasa) scientist told BBC News Online" - As to the sources who knows, but I did notice that on Wednesday Arvidson gave an interview to BBC online so maybe some *off the record* speculation was included in the chat. As to the "researcher" source they are clearly in the ESA loop, based on the Beagle reference below maybe one of that team (Pilinger)? - Spatial variation has clearly been established "One possibility the scientists had to rule out was that the ammonia came from the air bags of the failed Beagle 2 mission. Analysis revealed that the ammonia's distribution was not consistent with this explanation." - going back to the April Formisano interview, he has clearly said he will only go public when he has definitive answers. BTW AlexBlackwell Thanks for the Oliver Morton link, always a great writer. But why the sharpness? "I suggest you don't have any idea what you're talking about" I'm only a layman trying to make sense of what may be the most important discovery in my lifetime...

alexblackwell · Jul 16, 2004

But why the sharpness? Nothing personal, I can assure you, especially since I'm not acquainted with you (at least I don't recall anyone by the the name of "blairf' ;-) I have it on high authority that Formisano has problems, and that's putting it mildly, with Whitehouse's story. And a few colleagues who are privy to the PFS presentations that will be given next week at COSPAR 2004 state that Formisano will only be discussing his methane findings. Moreover, some of these same people have flatly asserted that the PFS did not find ammonia and was not even searching for it. I can only take them at their word, as I have no access to the PFS findings myself.

silylene old · Jul 16, 2004

I'm only a layman trying to make sense of what may be the most important discovery in my lifetime... Ammonia can be produced by photoreduction of N2 on sterile sand or clays or ferric oxide (see my previous posts). Since abiotic generation cannot be excluded, I fail to see any "most important discovery" in this story, even if there does turn out to be NH3 in the Martian atmosphere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

blairf · Jul 16, 2004

"I fail to see any "most important discovery" in this story" NH3 alone is *just* interesting, but four key life indicators at once if true is mind blowingly exciting?

JonClarke · Jul 16, 2004

As you probably know, methan, annonia, benzene, and formadahyde are all known to occur abiotically in commets, meteorites, and interstellar gases. Their detection on Mars, if genuine, is no smoking gunnfor life, although it is say something very interesting about atmospheric chemistry. As I see it there are at least 1) abiogenic endogenous formation in the atmosphere 2) endogenous formation in the lithosphere 3) Recent impacts (especially comets) 4) present life 5) release of trapped gases formed by any of the above processes from the long term sublimation of the polar cap Why people focus on one hypothesis out of 5 is beyond me. All are avlid, all need to be investigated before we can settle on the most likely. People should remember that a lifeless Mars is just as interesting scientifically as one with life. Cheers Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

blairf · Jul 16, 2004

"People should remember that a lifeless Mars is just as interesting scientifically as one with life" err no it isn't, at least not unless you are not a hardcore rock hound. to paraphrase your five mechanisms 1 - It's the gases stupid my limited understanding is that the atmosspheric chemistry of Mars is highly unfavourable to this explanation 2 - It's the rocks stupid Volcanism would be pretty neat, but where is the supporting evidence? 3 - It came from outer space stupid On a planetary wide level new arrivals bring relatively trivial amounts of matter, especially when the *matter* is so unstable in a Martian environment 4 - Bugs 5 - Bug/volcanoe farts trapped in ice and released slowly Plausible for methane, but all the others?

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