And the camps dig in - more fun than the Election!

najab · May 4, 2005

Anyone noticed that as the CEV proposals are coming to light, the various camps (capsule vs lifting body, Boeing vs Lock-Mart, great taste/less filling) have dug in and started taking pot-shots at each other? We've got mrmorris and shuttle_guy going at it in one thread, nacnud and spacefire lobbing shells at each other in another, and a virtual deathmatch going on in a third!Okay everyone, walk away from the computer, take a deep breath and calm down. If we're not careful M&L will end up as the techincal version of Free Space! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

najab · May 4, 2005

Though, I must say, "You've go no idea what the L/D ratio of a biconic capsule is, do you?" is a lot better than "You liberal poopyhead!"

tap_sa · May 4, 2005

Though, I must say, "You've go no idea what the L/D ratio of a biconic capsule is, do you?" is a lot better than "You liberal poopyhead!" Hear hear. And a lively debate, maybe a little heated here and there but people still sticking to the facts, is much more interesting to follow. How dull would it be if the discussion went like: "LM's gonna have a lifting capsule!" "Cool, I like lifting capsule" "Lifting capsule rules!!!" "Yes, it is the best" "I concur" ...and then three years of silent consensus until something new might happen in 2008 <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

mrmorris · May 4, 2005

"In fact I know my position: a capsule is best." Dang -- I hear neck vertebrae popping all around the world as SDCers read that and do a double-take. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> "A capsule like the Soyuz because it has more internal volume. " I dislike two things about the Soyuz -- although one might not be an unsolvable problem. I don't like having the orbital module. It seems like a wasted mass to launch each time. A Soyuz-shaped capsule without that module wouldn't be too bad. However, I believe there is a lot of 'critical' functionality in the OM that would have to be shifted to the return capsule. The resulting all-in-one Soyuz capsule might well lose much of its appeal. The other thing is the L/D ratio of the Soyuz is considerably lower than Apollo: 0.2-0.3 vs 0.5. While I downplay the advantage of cross-range in lifting body and winged craft -- I agree that it is, by and large, a "really useful thing". The mass trade for an Apollo-shape over a Soyuz shape of comparable internal volume isn't nearly as bad as the mass trade for adding wings.

georgeniebling · May 4, 2005

SG .. I have to agree with you on the benefit of capsules ... my thoughts below ... 1. better space/internal volume 2. more viable abort options (RTLS vs. escape tower) 3. ultimately less expensive (?) 4. quicker prep-time (minimum turn-around on a Shuttle is what?) etc ...

SpaceKiwi · May 4, 2005

History will record that in the Great CEV Debate of 2005, I sided with the intelligent ones. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

jurgens · May 4, 2005

technically we don't know that much about the Lockheed CEV, or the Boeing. All we know for now is what Lockheed's CEV looks like, and a not so great picture of Boeing's CEV. Then again Boeing's and Lockheed's rough mission reports do exist.

rybanis · May 4, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />History will record that in the Great CEV Debate of 2005, I sided with the intelligent ones. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><hr /></blockquote> BOEING ENDORSEMENT! I'm sorry, I had to! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

mrmorris · May 4, 2005

"You are sure of the data?" I'm not *positive* of much of anything. That's what I've found in the past via 'My Friend Google". Astronautix indicates it here: "...capsule's L/D ratio of 0.3 to make a lifting re-entry...". And a NASA PDF here indicates: "Descent capsule L/D ratio of 0.2-0.3 permitted a landing site to be targeted within several kilometers.". And another link here indicates: "...On re-entry it produced a hypersonic L/D ratio of 0.2 to 0.3...". None of these is referencing the Soyuz-TMA in particular, so I can't claim them to be definitive. However -- the l/d ratio is largely dependant on the shape, and they are all references Soyuz variants with the standard shape. "I see the capsule as being used only for launch, prox ops/docking and entry. No long term usage. " <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> You really should take time out one of these days to read the G-X3 thread. That's pretty much its intent. However -- I think the OM also has much of the ECLSS, the transfer tunnel, KURS equipment, communications gear, etc. In short -- I think it acts much as the equipment module did on Gemini -- minus propulsion.

nacnud · May 4, 2005

The reson for the Soyuz orbital module is because it reduces the mass of the heat sheild. A very considerable weight back in the late 50s - early 60s. Today with the advances in TPS this might not be such a factor.

Aetius · May 4, 2005

I am really in favor of a capsule CEV design. Look at the Soyuz. The computers can fail, and the capsule can still make a ballistic reentry. The booster below can explode on the launch pad, and the tower escape rocket can carry the crew to safety. The capsule design is inherently safer, in my opinion, and will probably be less expensive to develop. I've watched two space shuttles blow up in my lifetime. All these science fictiony-looking lifting body vehicles look like death traps to me. Give me a capsule any day. It doesn't look sexy, but it gets the job done. Isn't that what it's supposed to be all about?

mrmorris · May 4, 2005

"So the Soyuz is about the same as the Apollo." I don't know how you would mean that. Did you mean to say 'Gemini'? If so -- there are definite similarities in concept. "...print out the entire G-X3 thread and read it..." Yes... well bear in mind in the frst few pages that I was learning as I was going along. I've re-read some of the early posts after the fact and thought to myself: "Dang -- shoulda done more research before posting that particular thought..." <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

rybanis · May 4, 2005

It seems as though SG is in for the long haul <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

mrmorris · May 4, 2005

"That was in reference to the L/D. " Apollo is .52 Soyuz is between .2 and .3 So Apollo's l/d ratio is about twice that of Soyuz. They're similar in that they're both less than one, I suppose. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

najab · May 5, 2005

As the camps continue to dig in, we've had 3 suggestions thrown out as to what would make a perfect CEV...

rybanis · May 5, 2005

Clearly the Civic. Clearly! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

SpaceKiwi · May 5, 2005

From the decade that gave us Charlie's Angels and Welcome Back Kotter, how can you go past the design classic ... erm ... yes, you're right, it's simple! Plus, if any of those pesky ET's are buzzin' through our system, there's nothing that will say "seriously, we're not a threat" quite like a 1975 Honda Civic. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

SpaceKiwi · May 6, 2005

While on the general subject of CEV designs, it's time for me to once again ask SG if he is able to talk any more about his 'black ops' in Houston. How about it SG? If I remember correctly, you came to USA from the Lockheed side of the partnership? Have your trips west had anything to do with LockMart's CEV proposal, or are they still on a 'need to know' status? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

SpaceKiwi · May 7, 2005

Hmmm, that sounds plausible too now that you mention it. Lock ... Rock ... maybe that's where I've made the misconnection. Nevertheless, he's been up to some kind of mischief over there. Maybe helping NASA refine the CEV specs from their end of the equation. He's up to something exciting and forward-looking I would say, of that there is little doubt. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

scottb50 · May 7, 2005

I was always partail to the Winabago in Space Balls, lots of room, all the amenities and a refrigerator for your beer. Something Honda has never offered by the way. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

SpaceKiwi · May 7, 2005

You'll have to see if '4 of 5' (najaB) will add it to his poll. Chilled refreshments are an essential CEV spec to be sure. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

SpaceKiwi · May 7, 2005

Hopefully you will be able to talk about it to us one day. I seem to remember you being quite excited about it the first time you headed west, so I'm still hopeful it's something great for the space industry moving forward. Of course, it could just have been that you have met a nice lady out that way ..... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

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