Are Physical Laws Arbitrary?

[plat]

Meaning that if universes were being "created" all the time, would they all follow the same physical laws? or not?

 

[bonzelite]

it may depend on the nature of the physical space itself more than the matter in it. i would assume that phyiscal matter is physical matter here, there, and everywhere. and it behaves as it does in this cosmos because of the nature of how the cosmos is structured and made up. and would be the same in another cosmos, ie, void. <br /><br />if the space itself, as in the ethereal background to all matter, were different, ie, if voids had different flavors, perhaps the physical laws within them would differ. for that matter, maybe the matter itself would be different as well. perhaps in another model of existence, solid objects can pass through each other and remain intact, retaining their identities.

 

[vogon13]

Time may not be 'compatible' from universe to universe.<br /><br />Our time is a limited linear variety, for lack of better terminology, our time always proceeds in the same direction, and appears (so far) to be constant in its rate of passage.<br /><br />Additionally, for purposes of this post, let's say our time is always headed directly into the future. Is it possible for other 'times' to travel in an opposite direction?<br /><br />Is it possible for an alternative form of time to travel in a 'perpendicular' direction?<br /><br />How about time that 'diverges' at an intermediate value from our time?<br /><br />Because of the limited experience we have with our particular variety of time, we shouldn't be too rigid about other kinds of time.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Unusual 'orientations' of time would not be apparent unless regions (universes?) with differing specific 'chrono-phases' of time came into contact.<br /><br />While I didn't specifically state it that way, my thinking was it was implied in the question by the use of the word universes.<br /><br />Thanx for the opprotunity to clarify.<br /><br />For creatures such as ourselves, being near such a region and observing events proceeding in such a realm with a geometrically variant space time orientation would, presumably, be weird, if possible.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[plat]

So what do you think it is arbitrary or not?

 

[bonzelite]

yes. <br /><br />and time here flows only into the past like a wake from a boat. there is no time "flowing into the future." the future is indeterminant. and the present becomes the past instantly. there is no memory of the future or direction to it. only past.

 

[vogon13]

Sorry, original question still running loose.<br /><br />Arbitrary (and probably consistent) in each universe, and when comparing other universes, wildly and weirdly different.<br /><br />Especially in regards to time. I think the majority of other universes will have 'time' more similar amongst themselves than the weird variety we have.<br /><br /> {I'm thinking that when 'polled', denizens of most other universes will concur that the particular variety of time in our universe is 'peculiar'.}<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

i think there is a sort of "factorial" array or field of probabilities for the arrangement of universe structures. and it is as arbitrary as genetic selection, with an inherent base-struture or flavor that endless variations can be built upon. there is the "dog." and there are then the breeds of these dogs. and then there are playpus, koala bear, lizard, and bird. and variants of those. and so on. <br /><br />there are universes that are 7 feet across, for example.

 

[thebigcat]

If the theory that the universe consists of exactly 1 tachyon is true then differing universes could have seemingly arbitrary laws depending upon the nature of their respective component tachyons.<br /><br />Sorry. I thought this was a public outhouse. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[najab]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I'm thinking that when 'polled', denizens of most other universes will concur that the particular variety of time in our universe is 'peculiar'.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>This particular poll has, naturally, been deferred indefinitely due to the tendency for information transfer between two universes to result in the instantaneous and total anhilation of both of them.

 

[vogon13]

This 'time' thing I'm working through is pretty strange.<br /><br />I'll keep you posted.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[vogon13]

A recent analysis of the Hubble deep field implies that time is extremely finely 'grained' in our universe.<br /><br />Successive instants are, IIRC, like 10^-43 seconds apart. <br /><br />{My spin on this is "how fast does God's clock tick"}<br /><br />What is the effect of time that is less 'focused' than that?<br /><br />What constrains succesive intervals to be uniformly spaced?<br /><br />Can a progression through succesive intervals be subject to an effect analogous to the uncertainty principle?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[harmonicaman]

Yeah, according to Planck, that's a <b>Qauntum of Time.</b> <br /><br />Planck Time: <br /><br />Planck time is the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to across a distance equal to the Planck length<b>*</b>. This is the ‘quantum of time’, the smallest measurement of time that has any meaning, and is equal to 10-⁴³ seconds. No smaller division of time has any meaning. With in the framework of the laws of physics as we understand them today, we can say only that the universe came into existence when it already had an age of 10-⁴³ seconds. <br /><br /><b>*</b>The Planck length is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid, and quantum effects dominate. This is the ‘quantum of length’, the smallest measurement of length with any meaning. And roughly equal to 1.6 x 10-³⁵ m or about 10-²⁰ times the size of a proton. <br /><br />Definitions by: Dan Summons, Physics Undergrad Student, UOS, Souhampton <br /><br />

 

[newtonian]

Plat - Physical laws are not arbitrary in our universe.<br /><br />to wit: <br /><br />(Job 38:33) 33 Have you come to know the statutes of the heavens, Or could you put its authority in the earth?<br /><br />Laws require a law-giver. The fact that the laws and properties of our universe are very fine tuned to allow for stars to exist and for life to exist is evidence of the power and intelligence of our Creator.<br /><br />Other universes do not necessarily follow the same laws.<br /><br />Energy-based life forms, like angels for example, do not require the set of laws and properties of our universe to exist. They may, however, require other laws and properties governing various forms of energy - e.g. dark energy.<br /><br />Your question goes beyond scientific observation and into theoretical physics, etc., when it comes to other universes.<br /><br />

 

[newtonian]

vogon13 - Concerning "how fast does God's clock tick," the Bible answers:<br /><br />(Psalm 90:4) 4 For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night.<br /><br />(2 Peter 3:8) 8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.<br /><br />Note that if you read the above very carefully there is actually more than one flow rate of time being implied.<br /><br />The most obvious is 1,000 years in the human concept of time being as one day in God's concept of time.<br /><br />Usually, we would just leave it at that.<br /><br />But a watch during the night was customarily 4 hours long, which calculates out to 6,000 years as one day. And a shorter watch would calculate to even a more variant concept of time.<br /><br />In the 2 Peter reference, note that one day is as a thousand years. We usually skip over that - but it may mean a totally different concept of time where time passes much faster!<br /><br />In short, it is certainly reasonable to expect that time flows at different rates in different universes.

 

[newtonian]

harmonicaman - Which would mean the laws of physics and the properties of our universe would have to have been fine tuned within 10^-43 seconds!<br /><br />Wow! <br /><br />That is mind-boggling!

 

[bonzelite]

this is different. biblical references. <br /><br />it could be read, too, that the passages explain in general terms the smallness of human experience of time compared to the vastness of creation, of God. eg, a thousand years in sentient existence, seemingly long, is only a day elapsed, a mere fleeting night, with Jehovah, in God's terms [as in geologic time scales, for example, a million years is nearly insignificant. the biblical passages remark on this insignificance of long periods of time, as God needs no time, is eternal, and barely notices the passage of centuries. they pass in a wink]. <br /><br />i tend to see it less literally in terms of "1000" years; the 1000 year amount is used to illustrate the point for comparison purposes, making the concept tenable to the reader.<br /><br />however, i agree with your view that time can flow at different rates in different universes. maybe, for example, the Planck distance varies (for whatever reason). <br />

 

[harmonicaman]

So according to the Bible and therefore our universe, the Physical Laws must be relative to the observer.<br /><br />If you are within a Black Hole, you will experience a different set of physical laws. The same is true if you were in the sub-atomic universe, where it is postulated that as many as 11 different dimensions exist.<br /><br />And the Bible seems to indicate that the passage of time during the creation event was not the seem as we experience it today.<br /><br />-------------<br /><br />(It's just my opinion; but I believe that the bible is too vague of a reference to be relied upon to give accurate historical testimony. <br /><br />In science we must continually question the answers, test the results and refine our views of reality. The bible is static, unverifiable and imprecise. <br /><br />Science seeks to move mankind's knowledge forward, the bible is an interesting historical relic which is losing relevance as we evolve beyond its scope.)

 

[Leovinus]

My theory is that there very well could be other universes with other physical laws. For example, there may be a universe where gravity doesn't exist. My guess is you wouldn't see any life evolve like us in such a universe. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dragon04]

This is actually a tougher question than it seems on the surface, if you think about it.<br /><br />In a universe full of negative matter, one could suppose that everything follows Notwen's Swal of anti-gravity.<br /><br />And while the laws are "different", they're really not. It's the symmetrical and opposite analogue of Newton's Laws of gravity in our universe.<br /><br />In a Planck Universe, I can envision no laws whatsoever. Quantum Chaos until the beginning of time.<br /><br />So I can't say with any surety that I believe physical laws are arbitrary. Equal and opposite anti-laws still follow the same form.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

the bible is dynamic in that it will mean something different to each individual reading it, depending on where they "are." so it is everything but static. and highly relevant as a spiritual guide book. but not much beyond that. <br /><br />for example "do not judge lest you be judged" is a universal truth no matter what faith you ascribe to. but it will not help much in designing a trajectory to venus. not the right tool. <br /><br />agreed about it being too vague for scientific exactitude.

 

[plat]

I see what you mean, like universes have to follow some type of laws (even though they might vary) even though it is the sets might be different, there would have to be laws...

 

[dragon04]

I guess it also depends on what you mean by "arbitrary".<br /><br />If you mean arbitrary as in splitting a Helium atom and getting an Egg McMuffin and a cup of coffee as a result, I'd have to say no. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

right. i think we probably can agree that there is a structure and a cause and effect reality that is not just entirely hallucinogenic. that's pretty funny. egg mcmuffin. i'm now thinking of grimace and the hamburgerler. and that yellow bird that flies the plane. <br /><br />i tend to envision solid objects being able to pass through one another while remaining structurally identified. and maybe there are more liquid metals like mercury, but numbering in the dozens. endless variations of things like this. space time may be purple. there may be water droplets that are the size of an entire planet.

 

[newtonian]

harmonicaman - I do not understand how you reach the following conclusion - you posted:<br /><br />"So according to the Bible and therefore our universe, the Physical Laws must be relative to the observer."<br /><br />Not according to the Bible. Note the above quote I made concerning the statutes of the heavens in Job.<br /><br />While bonezlite (sp?) is correct that the overall context shows man's smallness compared with the universe (see also Isaiah 40:22 for a similar context), it also implies that the statutes of heaven have authority on the earth.<br /><br />This is good for us.<br /><br />This allows scientists to study the statutes of heaven while staying on earth!<br /><br />This in no way indicates that the laws of our universe are arbitrary or variable according to the reference point of the observer. <br /><br />The laws are indeed universal.<br /><br />Granted, we have not discovered all of the laws and properties of our universe.<br /><br />This is one reason astronomy is such an exciting science!<br /><br />We may not know all of the laws or properties governing black holes - though I suspect they involve things that happen at very small distances - and therefore involve the weak and strong nuclear forces.<br /><br />Yes, string theory, if true, posits much more than we actually know or observe - yet.<br /><br />On the Bible account of creation, yes the days are not as we use, i.e. simply 24 hours - as can be easily proven by the fossil evidence and geology, etc. It would be reasonable to expect God was referring to his own concept of time when outlining what he did on the days of creation - especially since humans did not even exist until the latter part of the 6th day!<br /><br />The Bible is not vague on history - however, we are dealilng here with pre-historic times. <br /><br />The Bible gives sufficient information for us to realize there is more than one heaven and that concept of time can very extremely.<br /><br />The reason that the Bible does not tell us all the deta