Call For Forum Unity & CONSTRUCTIVE Blogging. Please....

mattblack · Oct 29, 2005

**DIGRESSION ALERT -- Look; there's a group of people that use this Missions & Launches forum that lately, if I didn't know better, I'd SWEAR were only here to try and tear down everything that's established, factual or even vaguely conventional wisdom to push de-constructive agendas and push barrows that contain trendy, radical spaceblog opinions that cannot be adequately backed up by mathematics and facts, let alone anything else. Too many people here are saying: "You're wrong, my opinions are actually facts and those that don't agree must be trolled and flamed at all costs" or something equally apocryphal. I'm sometimes guilty of frustration as anybody else, but if you look at the history of all my posts, you'll see that I virtually never "arm-wrestle" with anyone else here. Is anyone else here going to back me up or help me out with this??!! If we don't band together CONSTRUCTIVELY. Then we'll never get to this: /*** Mod Apologies ****/ Dang, I was trying to resize the image, but I messed up somewhere along the way. Image posted below: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

vogon13 · Oct 29, 2005

My 'Handy fuel gauge for when you leave earth' thread isn't playing well. Sigh. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> {I know what you're getting at, but the mods (Admin really) don't edit for content} <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

spaceiscool · Oct 29, 2005

its freedom of speech when someone disagees with you. your post is less useful than the ones you complain about and you get angry when peeople disagree with you! maybe not everyone has there heads in the clouds over mars. you really think if this discussion board united well get to mars hahahhaa

strandedonearth · Oct 29, 2005

Hear, Hear! I've largely given up on these forums because it's the same old trolls who wouldn't know logic if they were bludgeoned with it. It's like the videos of bighorn sheep butting heads and not really getting anywhere. I must say, it sure did feel good when I stopped banging my head against the brick wall. That said, I agree the STS is needs to be replaced with a simple, robust, no-frills system for assured human access to space. Nothing fancy that requires anything resembling wings and landing gear; a roomy capsule will do just fine. A winged craft can wait for another time, when it can hopefully be developed beside a capsule system, not in place of, when it's needed. The main advantage to the Shuttle is that it can bring a lot of mass down from orbit, which is not a capability that's in demand right now. So there's really no need for a winged system at this point in time, and I don't believe a lifting body provides enough advantages to be worth the effort. I do not agree that the STS should never fly again and the ISS cancelled, for many reasons. The people that relentlessly bash the Shuttle, calling it a 'piece of ****,' are really insulting to the engineers and technicians who have kept those beautiful birds flying for 25 years. It may not be perfect, but then, nothing is ever perfect... except for those that make perfect asses of themselves.... What I would really like to see is more hardware designed to be re-used once it's primary function has been accomplished, much like the plans for the lunar descent stage to be refueled and used as the propulsion unit for a 'hopper'. Perhaps a used EDS could be landed relatively gently on the moon and used for other functions, even if only for storage space or scrap metal.

spaceiscool · Oct 29, 2005

disrespect to enginers? challenger, seven dead, enginers mistake on the side rocket booster. managers launched knowing it would be suicidal cause it was so cold. columbia, many mistakes, saw the foam hit, didnt even get it checked, seven dead. discovery, stil the same problems and 25 years later they nearly killed another seven. what respect do they deserve exactly? scrap it, sack the workers, give the money to companies with PROFESIONALS. scrap it now!

spacester · Oct 30, 2005

Well, you know I'm on board, mattblack. Good for you for taking the initiative here. You are 100% correct of course, music to my ears. I've thought about this a lot. In some ways, I've been thinking about this for 5 years. I could write a book, but I'll try to focus on the problem at hand. In fact, I'll cut straight to the solution with the bare minimum of explanation that this overly loquacious poster can manage. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> Step 0: Realize that there is virtually nothing the mods or admins can do. That's what makes these &%$#@!s such a menace: they're not stupid enough to violate the Terms Of Service. They are here to play their stupid games and they won't jeopordize their fun by going over the line. In short, we need to be our own moderators. But how exactly do we do that? Step 1: Establish a code of conduct. Off hand, I'd recommend that book called "Everything I need to know I learned in Kindergarten". Step 2: Identify the trolls. Maybe even go so far as to start polls as a referendum on a particular poster: "Is _____ a troll? Yes they violate the Code of Conduct way too often / No, they just have strong opinions / It's not that simple." Hopefully, someone can come up with something less heavy-handed. Step 3: Don't feed the Troll. If everybody on a thread announces that so-and-so is a Troll and ignores the Troll, we have a chance to go on with our business here. Step 4: Modify the TOS to ban users who have been determined to be uncurable trolls, after some sort of due process to establish their status as such. I know this is a reach, but it would complete the package. It would give the above steps teeth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spacester · Oct 30, 2005

Anyone can have strong opinions. Heck, if no one has strong opinions, what fun would this be? It's the way they present their opinions and it's the way they refuse to play nice. Trolls allow their zealotry to eclipse their good intentions. They also tend to be too thick-headed to understand that last sentence. You can have unpopular opinions and not be a troll. You can be stupid and not be a troll. (But there is a strong correlation.) If you absolutely fail to respond to the arguments and counter-points presented to you, you might be a troll. If you get caught making stuff all the time you might be a troll. If you SHOUT a lot, you might be a troll. Anybody else have suggestions for a list of "You might be a troll if . . ."? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

strandedonearth · Oct 30, 2005

Engineers always saw the problems coming, and advised management not to launch. Management launched anyways, due to politics. The STS was designed the way it was due to politics. You want to blame someone? Blame POLITICIANS! An engineer is only as good as his/her pointy-haired boss, just ask Dilbert. The real problem these days is a risk-adverse society. Pick a cause, more people die due to car accidents / plane crashes / guns / knives in a day than ever died on the Shuttle. More died in the first 5 years of aviation than in the first 60 years of space exploration. Guess what? PEOPLE DIE!!! At least they died doing what they love. If they wanted to launch a shuttle the day after Columbia, there would have been no shortage of volunteers to ride it, myself included. They deserve the respect of doing something that you can't do. So people died, you think they didn't feel grief about it? Those astronauts were their friends. Next you'll be griping at the Air Force for all the test pilots killed in their test programs. You think you can do better, with pointy-haired management politicos breathing down your neck? Prove it. Who wants to live forever, anyways?

dobbins · Oct 30, 2005

Your ignorance of the concept of freedom of speech matches your ignorance of reality in the space program. Freedom of speech means that the government can't bar you from stating a view. Freedom of the press means the government can't stop you from publishing a view. Neither obliges Space.com nor anyone else to provide you with a forum to spew emotional tripe and to troll other posters. You have the right to start your own forum and set up whatever rules you like. On this forum you, along with most of us, are no more than a guest with an obligation to follow whatever rules Space.com decides to set up.

spaceiscool · Oct 30, 2005

tell me what rule i have broken? above says a troll is someone who SHOUTS. well that makes matt black a troll then, he has lots of SHOUTING on many places, shall I link? i have no problem with that at all i will say. i will not be bullied out of this forum by three posters who do not like it when someone doesnt agree with them. i am being personally attacked by spacester on another page, i will not be as childish and that is brekaing the rules you threw at me there. so tell me what rule have i broken.

mattblack · Oct 30, 2005

Read carefully, spaceiscool: Then. What. Are. YOU. Here. For. Then? You've just proved my point. Again. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

spaceiscool · Oct 30, 2005

what point? why do you need to patronize? i am here to talk about space, my dislike of the shuttle and iss and things like that. stop acting like its exclusive to you and your buddies and no one else.

mattblack · Oct 30, 2005

>>stop acting like its exclusive to you and your buddies and no one else.<< YOUR interpretation of the situation and yours alone, not mine or most anyone else here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

dobbins · Oct 30, 2005

I'll simplify the definition of a troll, it's someone who makes posts designed to anger people so they will react emotionally. That fits what you have posted to this forum. If I wanted to read vapid emotional tripe devoid of logic or reason I'd head to some far right or left wing political blog. If that is what you are interested in I would suggest you stick with the radical political boards.

JonClarke · Oct 30, 2005

Very well said Matt. I have noticed this trend also. Increasingly there has ibeen posts by people whose main opinion seems to hate anything and everything being done or been done in space. Apollo was pointless , the shuttle should never has been built, The ISS is a waste of money. What's the point of going to the moon and Mars anyway. As for VSE..... We all have opinions, usually strong ones. We all have different ideas of what is most important in terms of space and how it should be done. But unless we realise that we have a common goal to moving out through the solar system and stop this infighting we won't be going anywhere. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

mattblack · Oct 30, 2005

Thank you, Jon, for your kind and constructive words. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

spaceiscool · Oct 30, 2005

so if you post a support of the shuttle page and it angers me i can call you a troller right? http://www.imaginova.com/tos/ where does it say i can not post things that other people disagre with?

mattblack · Oct 30, 2005

You're missing the point just a little. I want T-Space's CXV, BADLY. I want SpaceX's Falcon rockets to succeed. I want Virgin Galactic to succeed. I want the Shuttle to be retired by 2010, earlier if possible. Are you with me so far? Good! That makes me more ON your side than NOT. So what's your problem?! What do you WANT for manned spaceflight? Tell us, give us your opinions for the future. Don't keep up the barrage of attacks, just articulate. Offer an alternative to what's around, other than the above I just mentioned. We're waiting... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

mattblack · Oct 30, 2005

I followed your supplied Imaginova link and had a bit of a chuckle. Firstly, I commend you on taking the bother to find it. Secondly, by the conditions listed, you've come far closer to violating the terms and conditions of conduct than I have in the 5 years THIS MONTH that I've been here. Change Of Subject: What's your favourite movie? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

spaceiscool · Oct 30, 2005

again, you do not say what rules im apparenty breaking.

dobbins · Oct 30, 2005

If factual information angers you then you would be more at home on a different forum. The fact is I think the Shuttle was a mistake I have felt that way for decades, even before the thing flew. That is based on the fact that the service requirements of any RLV require a higher launch rate than is possible at the present time to be economically viable rather than on emotions. That doesn't mean that I'm going engage in a knee jerk reaction and demand that flights be halted because right now that is the only game in town. My problem with you isn't the Shuttle, it's your attitude.

spaceiscool · Oct 30, 2005

you are making no sence. you say i have a problem with factual information, pardon? then you agree with me, then you said the fact is my opinion. so you say your opinon is fact, when i agree with it, and then complain?

spacester · Oct 30, 2005

tell me what rule i have broken? above says a troll is someone who SHOUTS. well that makes matt black a troll then, he has lots of SHOUTING on many places, shall I link? i have no problem with that at all i will say. i will not be bullied out of this forum by three posters who do not like it when someone doesnt agree with them. i am being personally attacked by spacester on another page, i will not be as childish and that is brekaing the rules you threw at me there. so tell me what rule have i broken. OK I will respond point by point. I trust you will give others the same courtesy in the future? You have broken no written rules. What you have done is behaved badly. The above does not say what a troll is. It merely suggests what kind of behaviors I suppose are consistent with troll-dom. SHOUTING itself does not make a troll, but it's a warning sign. If you don't shout, good for you. You're not the only troll around here I'm ticked off at, that little speech wasn't aimed just at you. If you cannot reform your behavior, then I suppose you just might get bullied into leaving. But if you catch a clue and start playing nice, you will likely end up seeing that that is not my intention. It isn't your opinions that bother me, it's the presentation. You're going to need to be able to see the difference if you're not going to be labeled a troll. I am not personally attacking you. I am responding to you in a way that you don't like. Namely, in a similar fashion as to how you treat others. I am not calling you names, I am characterizing your behavior. You don't want to know what it's like if I actually go on the attack. You have broken the rules of civilized discussion. You will not find those rules in the terms of service. We haven't needed such rules to be explicity stated before. Look, spaceiscool, if your mission here was hypothetically supposed to be a mission of destructi <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spaceiscool · Oct 30, 2005

i have broken no rules. that is what i asked. good that you said that. i will post my opinon as i please as this is a free country and i will not have someone tell me how to post past the rules of this sight. so long as i do not break rules and the others you menton dont break rules then long may it continue. all this needs is some more respect for peoples opinons that are not agreable, i hope you can find some of that.

spacester · Oct 30, 2005

Dude, I am the guy who is trying to make a career out of respecting everyone's opinion. I'm the best you're going to find at respecting the opinions of those I disagree with. Several people have told you now that it's not your opinions, it's your attitude and approach. You can accept that as input or act like a mule. It's your choice. Just remember that choices have consequences. For example, if you choose to ignore the unwritten rules of civilized and rational discussion, then you may find yourself to be bereft of the protection those rules offer. In particular, I am going to start making fun of you for your ridiculous spelling and horrible grammer. Normally, we just let that stuff go, it's just an unwritten rule, you see, but us grown-ups decide to obey it anyway. So I take it that having been informed that your behavior is driving away posters who are highly valued to those on these boards, you just don't give a damn. You think that your right to act like an ass is more important than that. That's downright sociopathic, dude. Look it up and know thyself. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Call For Forum Unity & *CONSTRUCTIVE* Blogging. Please....

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