CEV-on-a-stick makes first flight!

Swampcat · Nov 12, 2005

OK, found something. This PDF is dated 1 Nov and shows a very different version from previous images. Very interesting. That bird cage interstage area is reminiscent of some Russian rockets. This version would be much more difficult to model and fly...would definitely have to be a 2-stage with an airstarted second stage and at least twice as big as my current model. Cool. Guess I better get busy <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

propforce · Nov 12, 2005

Yeah that's the latest that I know of. Looks like the 2nd stage is still about 100 feet long, maybe 5 feet shorter.... Good luck and let us know how you do <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Swampcat · Nov 12, 2005

"Good luck and let us know how you do" I've run some quick Rocksim simulations and it appears that I could make it work without the fins. It'll take about 27 ounces [765 grams] of nose weight to get the CG high enough, but it should work. I will probably save this project for later. I've already started working on a rocket with an inline 3 motor cluster where the center motor is airstarted. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

john_316 · Nov 20, 2005

Swampcat: Does Estes offer any cheap alternative rocket motors in the 600,000 lb to 1,200,000 lb thrust range like the ATK SRB? You know I'm juss messin with you..... Keep it up and have a blast...... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

dobbins · Nov 20, 2005

I just saw this over on NasaSpaceFlight. NASA has released a bid for Display Models of the new Rockets. It has scale drawings for the models and includes some details that weren't on the pictures that have been released. It's pretty big a 16M word file but worth the download. http://prod.nais.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/eps/sol.cgi?acqid=118283

henryhallam · Nov 20, 2005

Wow, that is a lot of paperwork for a set of scale models.

drwayne · Nov 20, 2005

The wonders of government procurement? Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

dobbins · Nov 20, 2005

It's mostly graphics and that is the reason it takes up so much size. There are a lot of large detailed color drawings in the document.

mikejz · Nov 20, 2005

dear god, this really is government work.

Swampcat · Nov 20, 2005

"NASA has released a bid for Display Models of the new Rockets." Excellent find, Dobbins. Thank you very much for that link. I'll be spending some time with those drawings. I've thought seriously of building a larger version of my CEV model and now I have actual dimensions and it appears that this is going to be what the real vehicle will look like, not just preliminaries. I'm also intrigued by the SDHLV. Who knows, I might build both of them. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

dobbins · Nov 20, 2005

I Can't take credit for finding it, RedSky on the nasaspaceflight forum found it and posted it there. All I did was copy the link and post it here because I knew it would be of interest to the people following this thread on models. A 1/48 display model of the CLV is something I'm thinking of doing with these plans however.

Swampcat · Nov 21, 2005

"Me too, but in a 1/72 and/or 1/144th, non-flying, display form!" Oh, I have to fly them. It's quite a thrill, as well as a bit nerve-wracking to put a lot of time and money into a detailed model, put some explosives in it, cross your fingers, hope you've done it right...and press the ignition button. Nothing like it <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> Unless it CATOs and then you cry, pick up what pieces you can find, go home and build another one. <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

lampblack · Nov 21, 2005

Does CATO = "crash at takeoff"? What an unhappy thought! But that's exactly what happened with a buddy of mine who's into model airplanes and model rockets. Just one time, he and I arranged for him to show me one of his planes. We traveled about 45 minutes out into the middle of nowhere to a rural airstrip. He broke out his equipment -- including a fairly remarkable looking remote-controlled craft. Then it took off. Ascended at about a 45-degree angle for approximately 1.5 seconds. Did half a rotation to the right -- and crashed into some nearby undergrowth. I didn't measure the flight's length of time. But as I recall, I inhaled more or less as the plane was taking off -- and had just about finished exhaling by the time I had realized what had happened. My buddy and I crawled through the briers, picked up the pieces, and then we drove back to town. Although we didn't get to see a flight, we enjoyed each other's company -- and he didn't give up on his model building. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Just tell the truth and let the chips fall... </div>

henryhallam · Nov 21, 2005

IIRC, "CATO" stands for "Catastrophically Aborted Take-Off" and refers to what happens when a solid rocket motor explodes. I'm not sure what the most common reason for it to happen is, but it certainly does happen often enough that you should ALWAYS be at a safe distance during model rocket launches, and that distance may be greater than you would think just from having seen one launch "normally".

Swampcat · Nov 21, 2005

"Does CATO = 'crash at takeoff'?" I've heard several derivations for CATO. henryhallam's is as good as any if not better than most. I've also heard that it's simply short for catastrophe. On this page of defined rocketry terms at info-central.org, they say that "CATO means that a motor blows up!" "Although we didn't get to see a flight, we enjoyed each other's company -- and he didn't give up on his model building." Good for him. I've crashed a few models too and sometimes they can be more entertaining than the ones that fly correctly. <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Nov 21, 2005

"I'm not sure what the most common reason for it to happen is, but it certainly does happen often enough that you should ALWAYS be at a safe distance during model rocket launches, and that distance may be greater than you would think just from having seen one launch 'normally'." Quite true. In all the years I have been flying rockets I have always been respectful of the damage they can do if something goes wrong. Besides the CATOs, I've had them jump off the pad, turn 90 degrees and sail over my head just missing me. I've also seen a few do cartwheels and various other anomalies. Amateur rocketry can be a very safe and enjoyable hobby for most everyone if some simply rules are followed, but can be very dangerous if you ignore those rules as well as common sense. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Dec 4, 2005

"Make sure you let us know how you get on with your certification." I qualified for Level 1 yesterday flying an H128. The delay charge was a little short so I got a small zipper on the lip of the airframe, but otherwise everything went well. I'm currently planning on modifying the rocket I used for altimeter-based parachute deployment so I can try for Level 2. Also, my CEV model flew again. This time on a G80. It was a little wobbly coming off the pad, but straightened out and flew to an estimated 1100'. Not quite orbit, but at least it landed on the grass this time without even a grass stain. Next flight will be on an H165 Redline. Rocksim says I should get almost 2200'. <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> Also blew up one rocket, but oh well. You win some, you lose some. The picture below is of my Level 1 qualification flight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

ve7rkt · Dec 4, 2005

Also, my CEV model flew again. This time on a G80. It was a little wobbly coming off the pad I'm beginning to lose confidence in Aerotech's 29mm single use motors. I've heard of, or flown myself, a lot of poor flights on the G80. Never had a single problem with a Cesaroni motor. Consider a Pro38 H153, or H143 'Smoky Sam'. Also, consider writing up a build article for rocketreviews.com. Triple bonus points if you include the Rocksim file. I'm playing with Rocksim 7, but I think Rocksim 8 handles spin stabilization. It'd be interesting to see if some spin-fins on the SRB would be enough to spin stabilize the upper stage after release. Estes released plans for a kit called the 'Tao', a two stage rocket with a finless upper stage. Might be a workable idea for the SRB CEV. And most importantly, congrats on making L1!

henryhallam · Dec 5, 2005

Congratulations!

Swampcat · Dec 5, 2005

Thanks, ve7rkt. I've not had any problems with Aerotech's SU motors. I've flown several G80's and a few F50's and they all worked as advertised. OTOH, I'm not at all impressed with Aerotech's reloadables other than the fact that Aerotech offers the widest selection of motors on the market, particularly in the 24mm-38mm range which is what I'm most familiar with. The rocket I blew up was a beefed up Estes Executioner with two 24mm motor mounts. I used a pair of Dr. Rocket motor cases with Aerotech F39-9 reloads. I had a really hard time assembling the motors. The delay insulator didn't want to fit, among other things. I actually destroyed one reload in the process of assembling it. Luckily there are three in the package. Both motors lit, but apparently both burned through their delay insulator and fired the ejection charge right after burn out. Needless to say that's a bad time for parachute deployment<img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" />. I recovered all the parts and pieces. Maybe I'll rebuild it, but I don't know if it's worth the effort. I probably should do a write up of my CEV/CLV model for rocketreviews, but considering that NASA changed the design on me I'm reluctant to do so. I have the Rocksim file on it, but it's not quite accurate. I had to leave the LES off the Rocksim model because of a problem with Rocksim's CP calculator, but I've done the CP calculation with other methods and it's pretty close. I have Rocksim 8 build 12, which was just released about a week ago. I'm not sure about the spin stabilization part, but I think you are correct. I like the new release because it includes booster recovery in the 2-D flight profile. I'm designing a two stage and had to guess at a few things before. Guessing is not good <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. Concerning the Estes Tao (tried googling it and got nothing but Spanish hits <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />)...is it in fact finless or does it utiltize a skirt fin li <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Dec 5, 2005

"Congratulations!" Thanks, Henry. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

ve7rkt · Dec 5, 2005

I've seen a lot of Aerotech motor issues, but to be fair, many of them were with old motors (made before the factory fire). I've seen more "bonus delays" than I care to count. Luckily, none in my rockets, but I can clearly remember the sound of a club member's Standard missile coming in for a high speed lawndarting. Then there was that stubby little PML kit where the motor had a blowby, the Quantum Tube airframe just kind of melted and deflated... good times. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> The Estes Tao (plans here, from an old Estes "Model Rocket News" issue) upper stage has no fins, no skirt, nothing but a nosecone, airframe, motor mount, and a swanky two tone paint job so you can watch it spin. The first stage has three fins, each split, with the bottom section twisted as a flap to induce roll. I'll build one someday, but I'd see if I could simplify things a bit... I don't need piston ejection for a low power model, and I certainly don't need parachute recovery on an Estes-style first stage, with the plastic 'chute packed right next to the motor. Now, you say Rocksim 8 handles booster recovery? That'd be worth the upgrade alone...

Swampcat · Dec 5, 2005

"I certainly don't need parachute recovery on an Estes-style first stage, with the plastic 'chute packed right next to the motor." That Tao is interesting. I'd like to see one of those in flight. I wonder how well it rides up a launch rod. I understand what you're saying about the 'chute being next to the motor. Maybe it's Estes idea for a new recovery method...the Plastic Lump Recovery System <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" />. I've been playing around with the booster recovery function in Rocksim. It's better than nothing, but it doesn't seem to allow for using an altimeter in the booster and it takes some trial and error to figure out when to trigger deployment with a timer. Maybe I need to play with it some more or contact Apogee. I've found their customer service to be top notch. Oh, and I understand the price is going up so you might want to upgrade soon. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

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