CEV-on-a-stick makes first flight!

SpaceKiwi · Nov 8, 2005

Fantastic effort, swampcat, well done! Do you mind if I ask what it's cost you to assemble that beauty? I don't imagine the motor comes cheaply? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

Swampcat · Nov 8, 2005

"Fantastic effort, swampcat, well done! Do you mind if I ask what it's cost you to assemble that beauty? I don't imagine the motor comes cheaply?" Thanks, Spacekiwi. I paid about $30 for the bulk of the parts. I used a few items left over from other projects, like launch lugs and the parachute. I probably spent about $10 on the plywood for fins, centering rings, bulkheads, etc., and probably another $10 on hardware. Add shipping & handling and several tubes of epoxy and I guess I put about $65 or so into it. The motor it flew on cost about $20. Building amateur rockets is not all that expensive (depending, of course, on how big you want to build them), but you can dump a lot of money into motors to fly them. I launched 4 rockets last Saturday, some a couple of times, and probably spent close to $200 for the motors. I have another chance to launch weekend after next and have ordered $100 worth of motors since I won't be flying as much that day. I'm going for my Level 1 certification and don't want to get too distracted by trying to fly too many times. Of course, I'm not using particularly large motors. My Level 1 certification will be done on an H motor which I paid $15 for. K motors can run around $100 each just for a reload (you have to have a motor case and closures and all that which can cost up to around $200) while N motors are over $700 each plus over $300 for the motor case, etc. I probably won't go that route since I really can't afford it. I'm looking to get into hybrids anyway. Was that too much information? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

strandedonearth · Nov 8, 2005

It's a very nice-looking rocket, it brings back memories of my model-rocket days as a kid. Of course, we couldn't even afford to fly D-class motors, and never saw any of the 'big' motors fly. It must be quite impressive to see fly. Nice job. /daydream... edit: I don't suppose you have any pics of it on the pad? launching? in flight?

Swampcat · Nov 9, 2005

"I don't suppose you have any pics of it on the pad? launching? in flight?" I have one picture of it on the pad, but it doesn't show much detail. My brother was supposed to take a picture of it in flight, but he's not a very good cameraman. His finger slipped and he missed it. I flew model rockets back in the day also. I got out of it just as the new E motors were being introduced. That was back when, if you wanted more power you just added more motors. I had one with 5 D's in it that I flew successfully many times. The body tube was one of those heavy tubes that carpet is rolled onto. I designed one with 7 D's, but got out of model rocketry before I built it. Now, 25 years later, I'm flying E's, F's and G's and will hopefully fly an H in about a week and a half. I've watched several rockets with H's, I's and J's and a few K's in them fly. Lot's of noise, smoke and fire. What more could you want?<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Of course, the ones that do corkscrews off the pad are kinda neat too as well as the ones that blow up. Watching a $300 kit-built rocket blow up is fun <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> as long as it isn't yours. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

SpaceKiwi · Nov 9, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Was that too much information?<hr /></blockquote> No, not at all swampcat, top stuff. I expected it to be a lot pricier to get into the rocketry game. Make sure you let us know how you get on with your certification. JSC will be pleased for the preliminary shake-out data also. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

ace5 · Nov 9, 2005

What really makes it ugly (the original concept, not your - I repeat - very nice work in represent it) is the use of the SRB; It makes the rocket a slender and too much tall assembly. Serguei Korolev used to say that "a beautiful rocket is a rocket that will fly succesfully", and the R-7 series are impressive -- see the side conical boosters and the general impression of harmony and stability; See Saturn I and Proton with their lateral tanks. They are nice-shaped and more important, aerodynamically perfect, I guess. In fact, to tell you the truth, I dont like the idea of using SRBs - or any solid motors in manned spacecraft - dont matter how proven they are. I wish you success in future flights, though. I know how difficult and rewarding is to see our model finished and ready to fly.

Swampcat · Nov 9, 2005

"Make sure you let us know how you get on with your certification." Will do. I still have a few mods to make on the rocket I will use. I'm adding some fiberglass reinforcement to handle the bigger motor. "JSC will be pleased for the preliminary shake-out data also." <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> Yeah, at least mine isn't a "paper" rocket. Well, there is some paper in it, but it's flying paper <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Nov 9, 2005

"What really makes it ugly...is the use of the SRB; It makes the rocket a slender and too much tall assembly." Sorry, ace5, but I think the word 'ugly' is pejorative. The fact is that lots of rockets are slender and tall and fly very well because they are slender and tall. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. "Serguei Korolev used to say that 'a beautiful rocket is a rocket that will fly succesfully'" Well, there you go. My CLV model flew successfully, therefore it's beautiful <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> "In fact, to tell you the truth, I dont like the idea of using SRBs - or any solid motors in manned spacecraft - dont matter how proven they are." That's a common attitude that I have a hard time understanding. They work. Why not use them? "I wish you success in future flights, though. I know how difficult and rewarding is to see our model finished and ready to fly." Thanks, ace5. I must admit I was very nervous just before pushing the launch button. You just never know whether or not you got everything right until you see it work. BTW, are you an amateur rocketeer? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

dobbins · Nov 9, 2005

"That's a common attitude that I have a hard time understanding. They work. Why not use them?" Pollution. In the near term this isn't a problem, the current launch rates are so low that the pollution from one launch has dissipated long before the next launch occurs. This hasn't stopped some of the hard core tree huggers from opposing the Shuttle on environmental grounds. Before cars had pollution controls emissions weren't a problem when there weren't many cars on the road, but it did become a problem once use increased. Solids have the same long term problem, as launch rates increase the pollution problem will increase. Even if this aspect doesn't bother you don't forget that political opposition will also increase, it won't just be the hard core environmental fanatics that will opposing space flight. In the long term solids won't be a viable option.

ace5 · Nov 9, 2005

Yes, beautiful is a subjective issue. It depends on the eye... The main reason about SRBs is that their impossibility of being shutt off once ignited. For manned operations, it is, IMO, unforggivable. Second, it makes the first stage thinner that the upper sections. This long hammer-head appearance makes it seems like "hey sometinhg is lacking there..." - like an R-7 boosters without the side blocks. Again an issue of personal point of views. Yes, as a model maker, I enjoyed to buil some of my own designed rocket models; But I concentrate in designing my spacestations and manned vehicles, besides modelling real spacecrafts (like Soyuz and Shuttle) using paper, foam, plastic, and even scale models. And i am fascinated about putting all systems inside the models. And their crews. Good luck and higher flights!

CalliArcale · Nov 9, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />The main reason about SRBs is that their impossibility of being shutt off once ignited. For manned operations, it is, IMO, unforggivable. <hr /></blockquote> That's a common complaint about solids. It's a fact that a catastrophic failure prior to SRB sep in Shuttle is most likely not survivable. There is a middle-ground alternative, of course: hybrid motors. These use solid propellant but liquid oxydizer. To shut off the motor, just stop the flow of oxydizer. I don't believe they've been used in orbital vehicles yet, though. I think at least one of the X Prize contender was using hybrids, and I saw video of a model version of the Venturestar (about 1/4 scale, if memory serves) launched using hybrids and then piloted to a safe landing after burnout using typical R/C airplane equipment. That was cool. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

spacefire · Nov 9, 2005

question is: can the escape tower pull the CEV away from the SRB and 2nd stage in time if an 'unscheduled' conflagration or even deflagration occurs in the normal burn of the SRB? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.comhttp://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </div>

CalliArcale · Nov 9, 2005

I would bet it could (and I'd hope that would be in the design requirements). I seem to recall there was a Soyuz that used its escape tower while the booster was still burning, so it should be doable. I'll have to look that up to see if I'm remembering correctly. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

CalliArcale · Nov 9, 2005

Okay, I've actually found several instance of the escape system being used in flight. The unmanned flights of Soyuz L1 are a goldmine of such instances; it was being placed on the then-immature Proton booster, which blew up with distressing frequency. The escape system got a very good workout, but it seems it was intended to shut engines down before separating the capsule. I did not find enough details to know if it ever failed to shut down the engines before separation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

chriscdc · Nov 9, 2005

When they said the pads needed modification, they weren't kidding were they.

Swampcat · Nov 9, 2005

"In the long term solids won't be a viable option." This thread is not about the pros or cons of using solid propellant rocket motors, but I'd like to address your point. I have no doubt that you're correct. I'm about a couple of leaves short of being a treehugger myself so I'm sympathetic to the argument. The point could be made, however, that throwing spent rocket stages into an ocean is an environmental problem. Burning kerosene in a liquid propellant rocket has a negative impact on the environment. For that matter, the propellants used in amateur rocket motors (essentially the same as used in an SRB) could be seen as damaging to the environment. Of course, as you said, it's not so much a problem when you're not overloading the ecosystem's ability to handle the pollutants, but could very well become a problem with increased use. Hopefully, before that happens, we will be using other methods to get to space. I'm all for that. In the meantime, it's my opinion that if NASA believes an SRB makes a good booster then I see no reason to doubt them. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Nov 9, 2005

"The main reason about SRBs is that their impossibility of being shutt off once ignited. For manned operations, it is, IMO, unforggivable." That's why you have an escape tower. "Second, it makes the first stage thinner that the upper sections. This long hammer-head appearance makes it seems like "hey sometinhg is lacking there..." - like an R-7 boosters without the side blocks. "Again an issue of personal point of views." My point is that if it can fly successfully then there isn't a problem. Esthetics are nice, but functionality is, IMO, more important. I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Nenhum problema <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" />. "Good luck and higher flights!" Thanks. I just checked out your website. That's excellent work. Do they fly? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Nov 9, 2005

"There is a middle-ground alternative, of course: hybrid motors...I think at least one of the X Prize contender was using hybrids..." Space Ship One used a hybrid motor manufactured by SpaceDev. Hybrid motors are a viable option for amateur rocketry. The oxidizer, nitrous oxide, is readily available at most performance auto parts suppliers and the number of suppliers of small hybrid motors is growing. Hybrid systems that include the fuel grain and oxidizer tank are available from G (starting at around $20/motor) up through at least M class motors. They are a little more expensive to get started with mostly because of the extra ground support equipment needed, but the components are non-explosive until combined and ignited which makes them much safer than solid propellant motors. They also don't fall under any of the government's explosives permit requirements which can be a problem with high power solid propellant motors. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Nov 9, 2005

"When they said the pads needed modification, they weren't kidding were they." <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> I must assume you're referring to my launch pad photo. I suspect the fullscale vehicle will require a much bigger launch rod than my model does.<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Nov 11, 2005

"Perhaps I do...but if I told you I would have to kill you." <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> Aw, come on, S_G. I won't tell anybody <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

propforce · Nov 12, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />"Perhaps I do...but if I told you I would have to kill you." Aw, come on, S_G. I won't tell anybody . <hr /></blockquote> Here you go. This way S_G won't have to kill ya <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> http://images.spaceref.com/news/2005/nas.esas.18.l.jpg <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Swampcat · Nov 12, 2005

"Here you go. This way S_G won't have to kill ya <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />" Thanks, propforce. I actually have that image. The problem is that there are several drawings of the CEV/CLV and they're all different. The image you linked to is dated 03 Jun 2005. The image that I used to scale my model is dated 19 Sep 2005 and is part of a NASA PDF. I sure would like to know which drawing is more likely to represent what the actual vehicle is going to look like (so would a lot of people, I guess), but I don't want to die over it <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. I suppose I'll just have to wait until NASA figures out exactly what this thing is going to look like and then build another one. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

Swampcat · Nov 12, 2005

Oops. I meant to post an image comparing the 03 Jun and 19 Sep images. It's not my best effort (I had to chop & paste parts of images) , but hopefully it gives a close comparison of at least two of the images available. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

propforce · Nov 12, 2005

There's a even later one, it's the NASA industry day briefing. I can't find the link now but I think it just came out a couple of weeks ago. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Swampcat · Nov 12, 2005

I sure would like to see that. I've done a fair amount of googling for images, but haven't seen anything later than the 19 Sep images. Guess I'll try again. Thanks. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

CEV-on-a-stick makes first flight!

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