Colonizing Venus - looking for sources

[mithridates]

Hi - I've been working on the Colonization of Venus article on Wikipedia for the past few days, and I plan to make it a featured article so that we can see it on the front page for a full day. This will be my second featured article on Wikipedia so I know exactly how the system works, but I'm lacking in sources.<br />The sources I've been referencing so far are mostly from papers published by Geoffrey A. Landis on his site:<br />http://www.sff.net/people/geoffrey.landis/papers.html<br /><br />with the odd other source here and there, but I can't find anything else on actual colonization of Venus. Referencing simple exploration is okay up to a point, but since the article is on colonization it will have to be about actually sending humans there over the long term.<br />The place where it can be done, of course, is 50 km up in the clouds where the air pressure and surface are exactly the same as here on Earth - you fill an environment with breathing air, which acts as a lifting gas on Venus in exactly the same way helium works here, so it doesn't even require any power to keep it afloat up in the clouds. It's quite an exciting concept and since the pressure, temperature and gravity are all pretty much the same as here I'm now convinced that Venus is the place we should be expending most of our efforts on, before Mars.<br /><br />Any other references on proposed colonization of Venus? I live in Korea by the way (Canadian, but I live here) so referencing actual paper sources wouldn't be that easy.<br /><br />Here's the page:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Venus <br /><br />-----<br />Edit: based on the following three pages of discussion I need to make this point very clear:<br /><br />*****<br />Proposals for manned exploration of Venus to not include surface missions. Please do not mention the harsh c <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Welcome to SDC, great first posting here. An interesting idea and one that appears to be quite feasible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[why06]

Why in the world anyone would like to live on Venus makes no sense to me....<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> but that still is a pretty good idea .... tell you what if I find any thing I' ll give it to you<br /><br /><br />Wait!! Hold on!!<br /><br />I've got an idea.....the reason you have no infor mation on colinizing Venus is because no one has ever discussed such an absurd idea.....<br /><br />If only somehow we could discuss the possibilities on in habitating Venus with really smart people who know a lot about space and would willingly talk to you for free....<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Hold on... Space....Space.com....<font color="white"> Eureka! Ive got it!<font color="yellow">....You could have a Discussion here...<br /><br />Quick Start a discussion!!!<br /><br />Wait we've already started one !!!<br /><font color="white"> <br /><br />Good I'll be the first to inquire .....<br /><br />1st: What is the purpose of this expedition to colonize...(<font color="yellow"> that's what NASA going to ask so I figured I mise well ask it right now<font color="white">)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />O.U.T.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br /><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

We dont know much about venus.Talking of coloniasion is irrelevant .You can think of colonising mars.Robert Zubrin is doing some useful work.

 

[ittiz]

That's ironic, I made the terraformed Venus image that is on that page.

 

[mithridates]

Thanks. I post on a lot of sites here and there and also run one myself so I forgot that I had just registered and dove right in without an introduction. <br />From the Geoffrey A. Landis papers I've been able to find information on aerostat habitats and atmospheric flyers, but I'm trying to find a few more sources. The page will also have a section for colonization of Venus in science fiction but I don't read science fiction so I'll have to try to see what I can find on some other Wikipedia articles or somewhere else. The rest of it will have to be more feasible though, proposals that could realistically be carried out sometime in the near future.<br /><br />One other thing that could be really helpful would be images or diagrams that are either free of copyright or licensed under a free-use license. The page could use some images of actual proposed ideas. Maybe even an illustration of the process by which sulfuric acid could be turned into water, that sort of thing.<br /><br />In the meantime, there's a section on the main page of Wikipedia called "Did you know..." for new (within the last 5 days) articles of some quality so I created one on the atmosphere of Venus:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus<br />It's not quite as effective nor as long-term as the featured article, but it still gets to show up on the front page of the 16th most popular site on the internet for a while and that couldn't hurt. I think it'll show up there in the next few days. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

CE, everything you said makes perfect sense.<br />Venus (despite the fact that women are from there) makes no sense as a colonization site.<br />Mars is much closer to earth's environment than anywhere else in the solar system, so if we've got the guts and money to try, that should be the target.<br />Whether either of those conditions will (or should) be met is another (long-winded) question <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[usakrns]

In 2.5 billion years it should be about perfect for colonization.

 

[mithridates]

No, Venus is far closer to Earth's environment if we're talking about the cloud tops. Pressure, temperature, and gravity are all far closer to Earth 50 km above Venus than on the surface of Mars. To the poster just before you that talked about what happens if the balloon springs a leak and you fall down and burn to a crisp while being crushed, well on Mars if you spring a leak your blood boils and you die. Mars is no picnic either so let's not pretend that it is. The difference is that on Venus if you spring a leak at 50 km it's at the same atmospheric pressure so you actually have the opportunity to go over and fix it like you would any other leak. On Mars one hole and you're done.<br /><br />I wrote an article on the atmosphere of Venus a few days ago and check it out! It's on the main page of Wikipedia right now.<br />http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/mithridates/atmosphereofvenusohyeah2.png<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus<br /><br />Some people seem to be minunderstanding the intent of the op - I'm NOT talking about the surface of Venus. But who ever said colonization has to be done on the surface? That's the assumption that I'm hoping to remove by showing people how much more Earth-like (relatively speaking) Venus is than Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Not quite. You're drifting mostly above the clouds of sulfuric acid and there's quite a bit of sunlight up there. There's some sulfuric acid but it's not as common as below. As the paper states:<br />----<br />However, viewed in a different way, the problem with Venus is merely that the ground level is too far below the oneatmosphere level. At cloud-top level, Venus is the paradise planet. As shown in figure 2, at an altitude slightly above fifty km above the surface, the atmospheric pressure is equal to the Earth surface atmospheric pressure of 1Bar. At this level, the environment of Venus is benign.<br /><br />-above the clouds, there is abundant solar energy<br />-temperature is in the habitable "liquid water" range of 0-50C<br />-atmosphere contains the primary volatile elements required for life (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen,and Sulfur)<br />-Gravity is 90% of the gravity at the surface of Earth.<br /><br />While the atmosphere contains droplets of sulfuric acid, technology to avoid acid corrosion are well known, andhave been used by chemists for centuries.<br /><br />In short, the atmosphere of Venus is most earthlike environment in the solar system. <br /><br />Although humans cannotbreathe the atmosphere, pressure vessels are not required to maintain one atmosphere of habitat pressure, andpressure suits are not required for humans outside the habitat.It is proposed here that in the near term, human exploration of Venus could take place from aerostat vehicles in theatmosphere, and that in the long term, permanent settlements could be made in the form of cities designed to float atabout fifty kilometer altitude in the atmosphere of Venus. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

City in the Clouds: Empire Strikes Back. <br /><br />very romantic.

 

[nexium]

I think the first probe of the atmosphere of Venus found a minimum temperature of 55 Degrees f. Are there reasons to think 32 degrees f also occurs? What is the temperature range at 1/2 to one barr? Neil

 

[fingle]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>mithridates said: <br />Venus is far closer to Earth's environment if we're talking about the cloud tops. Pressure, temperature, and gravity are all far closer to Earth 50 km above Venus than on the surface of Mars. To the poster just before you that talked about what happens if the balloon springs a leak and you fall down<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I too wondered about the leaky balloon senario. And although I personally think that lighter than air is a gas <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" />, We earthlings have not been very successful at it. Historically it's a bust <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />, and despite lots of promises and some really cool designs there are not vast fleets of airships doing every job from weather and communications to construction and exploration. Heck I am the only person I have ever known who wants to live permenantly in an airship, everybody just looks at me strange whenever I bring it up. Oh sure they all look attentive and smile and say that sounds great but they all have that cornered with a bore look in their eyes. So now you know where you can get your first volunteer to test your new designs, before you ship them off to venus please.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mithridates]

At those heights it's around 20 C (0.5 bars) to 70 C (1 bar). Not bad. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Fully agree.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I was speaking of surface conditions. Certainly there, Mars is much closer to earth's environment than Venus.<br />I'm not keen on the idea of colonizing clouds. Give me ground to walk on! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[scepterium]

I completely agree. Mediforically speaking, Venus is hell and all of it's sky is still within the devils grasp so we musn't go there.

 

[yoda9999]

Seems like the only advantage a habitat in the Venusian atmosphere has over a space habitat is that you don't need to provide air pressure. But you're going to spend almost as much as what you need for something like an O'Neil space habitat.<br /><br />Why not just colonize the space above the planet? If you are going to mine Venus, use robots. The human engineers can live in orbit.

 

[mithridates]

Nothing to explore? There's plenty to explore. Higher air pressure, slightly lower gravity and the opportunity to avoid the night entirely make Venus a pretty easy planet to fly on. Take a look at this link:<br /><br />http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/Venus_airplane_STAIF01.pdf<br /><br />Abstract. A solar-powered airplane is proposed to explore the atmospheric environment of Venus. Venus has several advantages for a solar airplane. At the top of the cloud level, the solar intensity is comparable to or greater than terrestrial solar intensities. The Earthlike atmospheric pressure means that the power required for flight is lower for Venus than that of Mars, and the slow rotation of Venus allows an airplane to be designed for continuous sunlight, with no energy storage needed for night-time flight. These factors mean that Venus is perhaps the easiest planet in the solar system for flight of a long-duration solar airplane.<br /><br />These comments do your argument no good however:<br />"and death awaits you if anything goes wrong with the technology that keeps you afloat" - as if on other planets such as Mars anything else but death awaits you were something to go wrong. I like Mars too and I hope it gets colonized but let's not pretend it's a friendly destination. Also, the "technology" that keeps you afloat is breathable air. Without breathable air you would die before the aerostat habitat even starts to fall. <br />Lastly, there's a large difference between hurricane winds and hurricane-force winds. The jet stream itself that airplanes use to shorten or lengthen flight times has reached up to 400 kph. Why do jets fly in the jet stream and not through hurricanes? Because one goes straight forward and the other moves in circles of course. A high air speed alone means almost nothing. The winds we're talking about on Venus are ones that move around <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

I wasn't, and neither was the original post. Nobody here has ever said anything about the surface. The surface is a red herring that might as well not exist for all the good it does us. Ignore the surface. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

Good post, CE. Not to mention that a Martian colony could become self sustaining far more cheaply than an airborne colony in Venus' atmosphere, if it even could at all.<br /><br />Getting started would be the hard part. But if you could boost a TBM or two to Mars, you could excavate a nice big cave system for habitation, agriculture, etc.<br /><br />Personally, I'd say that Mercury would be a far more attractive and realistic colonization spot than Venus any day.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[mithridates]

>And power will also be limited. How will you generate electricity in this floating city? Power plants tend to be quite heavy. <br /><br />Solar power, of course. On Venus thanks to the cloud cover solar panels generate pretty much the same electricity pointed down towards the clouds as they do pointed upward.<br /><br /> />I hope you're not suggesting that Venus has breathable air. It is composed of carbon dioxide and sulfuric acid. <br /><br />Why would I suggest that? Thanks for the tip but I wrote the article on the atmosphere of Venus on Wikipedia so I'm aware of what it's made out of. You bring breathable air at first and you make the rest. H2SO4, note the O there. That's oxygen.<br /><br /> />Hurricanes do not have "slow-moving air masses that encircle themselves", as the Katrina victims can tell you....they are quite violent and turbulent. <br /><br />As a whole a hurricane moves quite slowly, that's why you have a few days warning. That's what I'm talking about. A hurricane isn't just a fast wind that blows in and out at the speed of the wind itself.<br /><br /> />The hurricane-force winds that exist at the level you propose your colony to operate at circumnavigate the planet in less than 4 days.<br /><br />Explain how it would be trouble. And while you're at it, explain how the jet stream fails to be any trouble as planes fly through it each and every day even though it can reach the same speed as the winds on Venus we're talking about.<br /><br />Also, please read the paper on the subject written by Geoffrey A. Landis. Many of the points you bring up have already been answered in the paper. Colonization of Venus isn't an idea I just came up with one day because I thought it sounded neat. This is not "my colony" that I'm proposing.<br /><br />http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

PS I like Mars too and I'd like to see it colonized as well. Apologies if I seem a bit testy. Though I disagree with most of what you've just written, I think this point you made is valid:<br /><br /> />On Mars, your infrastructure can be spread out, with lots of room for redundancies and fail-safe mechanisms. Your technology might fail you and result in a blowout now and then, but that wouldn't destroy the whole colony. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

A small, industrial outpost within the atmosphere of Venus would be possible provided there is a profitable reason for it to exist. The habitats could be suspended by balloons and there could be enough so that the outpost or colony won't be destroyed in the event of a balloon failure. Only that individual facility which the balloon is supporting would go down.<br /><br />IMO, its technically doable. Practicality as in getting hoards of people living in the atmosphere is another matter but a century from now, who knows.<br /><br />BTW, I looked for other sources and didn't see much. This is not a widespread idea it would appear. Venus atmospheric colony designers will have to start nearly from scratch. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Its a hell.Why not go to mars?