Colonizing Venus - looking for sources

[qso1]

I'd definetely go Mars first and thats probably the direction humanity will take initially.<br /><br />But eventually, if profitable...a Venus industrial operation could be done. I don't think Venus is the kind of place people would live unless the airborne colonies were large enough to at least be able to appear city or park like. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

We may terraform maes before living.But can you ever terraform this inferno?The main obstacles in terraforming Venus are high temperature and high pressure. Both problems may be solved through elimination of the atmosphere, either by removal to space or by physical/chemical burial in the crust. All schemes proposed to date [20] require at least 1028 joules for execution, but only using self-replicating machines can humanitýs investment be reduced to reasonable levels and payoff be maximised. <br />4. 1 Preferred Scenario<br />The mass of the Venusian atmosphere is 4.7 x1020 kg. To remove the gravitationally-bound atmosphere to Sun/Venus L1/L2, where it enters heliocentric orbit and disperses rapidly, Ei = 2.5 x1028 joules are required. The simplest way to provide this energy is by impact with an asteroid of mass Ei[GMo (Rv-1 Rj-1)]-1 = 2 x 1019 kg, roughly the size of 624 Hektor, a Trojan asteroid near Sun-Jupiter L4. A gravitational assist manoeuvre at Jupiter to aim Hektor at Venus requires a delta-V of about 1 km/sec from Hektor's present location, with a 1-2 year post-encounter fall time to Venus. A single SRS seed would be sent to Hektor to replicate into a large factory able first to build thrusters adequate for moving Hektor to Jupiter, then later to break up the asteroid into shaped, autopiloted chunks to ensure maximum energy transfer to the Venusian atmosphere upon impact. Related impact methods have already been proposed [20-21]. <br />With Venus' atmosphere gone, its surface begins to cool. A sunscreen twice the diameter of the solar disk positioned at Sun-Venus L1, constructed of 50 gm/m2 solar sail material [22], has a mass of 3 x 1013 kg which can most cheaply be obtained from the Moon. Hence, simultaneous with the launching of the Hektor seed, another standard SRS unit is dispatched to the Moon where in 18 years it replicates into a factory covering less than 2% of the lunar surface, able to manufacture the screens in seven more years and then to gener

 

[mithridates]

That last post on terraforming was pretty long so I'll take a look at it in a second (and thank you for all the detail), but based on the quantity of "Venus is hell, why go there?" responses I think I have to make something really clear:<br /><br />*****I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SURFACE OF VENUS.*****<br /><br />I'm sure the surface is just dreadful and looks just like the classic image of hell, but once again:<br /><br />*****I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SURFACE OF VENUS.*****<br /><br />I hope that's been made clear. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

I think that's a good point. The most attractive part of Venus would be if you could make a dwelling large enough that you could actually maybe make a small place for just relaxing, playing music or whatever. What would be the lightest, strongest material to build a large platform that everything else would be based on? Some sort of material that can be packed away as long flat strips that can be removed later and interlocked would be the best; a ship going in could spend the first few months on the way just like any other ship, then after entering the atmosphere inflate a large enclosure a la Genesis 1, place itself on the bottom to anchor it and keep it from being turned around in the wind, whereupon people could emerge to build the structure. As simply having breathing air would keep it up, there wouldn't be any hurry to get everything complete all at once. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

You cant expect it be far nicer than surface.

 

[mithridates]

? It's a million times nicer than the surface. What are you talking about? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[yoda9999]

Any Venus colony needs to have a transport hub accessible to offworld. Being in a planetary atmosphere like Venus doesn't seem very accessible.<br /><br />Why not just put the colony in Venus orbit? Spacecraft from Earth can reach Venus orbit more easier than it can to fly into the atmosphere. <br /><br />Rescue operations and resupply would also be easier in orbit than in the atmosphere.<br /><br />What are the benefits of an atmosphere colony over an orbital outpost?

 

[mithridates]

There would be the same benefits you would get with a number of other atmospheres - access to necessary elements for life, gravity (because you're not in orbit around the planet anymore), and on Venus the same air pressure you would find on Earth meaning that people could actually go outside with only a protective suit from the acidic atmosphere and breathable air. Being in orbit would be okay but there's no reason to just stay there for human explorers or colonists. It would be just space, just located right in front of Venus.<br />I assume there would be a number of probes in orbit around Venus though, which would assist in the same way that a few of the probes currently in orbit around Mars are capable of doing.<br />Venus' atmosphere BTW goes out a lot farther than ours does, so the level at which the pressure reaches one bar is at the same altitude that you reach when you're already halfway into space (or 62.5% according to the US which gives people over 80 km the designation of astronaut). It's important to remember how much bigger and thicker it is than ours. It's quite impressive. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[yoda9999]

Sounds interesting. I got nothing personal against colonizing the atmosphere of Venus. Just that it seems to me that once we reach that level of technology, we probably will have enough automation or robots to do all the work at Venus, bring stuff up, use space elevators, etc. I don't know if there be enough reason to put people in the Venus atmosphere, which is hazardous, if you got robots. I think its just easier and more efficient for people to work on Venus space stations. For actual colony settlements, seems Mars would be "nicer". Maybe a small research outpost in Venus atmosphere.<br /><br />There are lots of place on Earth we don't have much colonizing, maybe small colonies or research outposts, like remote areas, deserts, rainforests, Antarctica, polar regions, tundra, etc. Maybe not enough natural resources, or too much endangered species.

 

[qso1]

I agree that Venus atmosphere is going to be much better than the surface. But I suspect that humans by and large are going to want to live in mostly earthly or earthlike environements. I don't really foresee large numbers of humans living on Mars for all their lives but I could be wrong. If anything, colonization of Mars and Venus are still fairly distant (30 or more years) scenarios.<br /><br />The scenario I tend to envision is one where Mars is set up for research and tourism. Any colonies will spring up from those activities and may involve personnell rotating every four to ten years or so. Few living there permanently. At least unless or until Mars is terraformed. I'm not entirely convinced we actualy would be able to terraform a world. OTOH, we are potentially terraforming this one. Albiet unintentionally.<br /><br />Same for Venus atmosphere (Not the terraforming however) except tourism may be on a more limited basis than it is for Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Okay. Well, I suppose the first thing to do then is to begin developing atmospheric flyers that have been proposed and start exploring with those. They can be developed as cheaply as the rovers exploring Mars right now and as Venus rotates so slow any craft in the atmosphere can have 24 hours of sunlight to go from, which is a big plus. Add to that the higher atmospheric density and the slightly lower gravity and all you have to worry about are the high winds. Having a few atmospheric flyers would probably be the best way to reignite the debate in the general public and then we can go from there.<br /><br />Here's the pdf on them:<br /><br />http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/Venus_airplane_STAIF01.pdf <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

I agree. In part because I've had concepts I developed for stories I do and one deals with a manned atmospheric flythru of Venus atmosphere. The spacecraft model is not quite finished but here its shown before deorbiting for an aeropass. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

alokmohan:<br />We may terraform maes before living.But can you ever terraform this inferno?The main obstacles in terraforming Venus are high temperature and high pressure. Both problems may be solved through elimination of the atmosphere, either by removal to space or by physical/chemical burial in the crust. All schemes proposed to date [20] require at least 1028 joules for execution, but only using self-replicating machines can humanitýs investment be reduced to reasonable levels and payoff be maximised.<br /><br />Me:<br />As I mentioned in my post on the terraforming. I'm not entirely convinced we will do that anytime soon...if at all. But if and/or when we do, I would agree Mars makes more sense as a planet to attempt to terrafrom before Venus.<br /><br />Looks like you have the knowledge to at least allow for starting the process one day. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[brellis]

very cool thread, thanks mith for starting it.<br /><br />qso, do you have some stories published?<br /><br />as usual, i'm all questions, no answers <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />alokmohan mentioned 'gardening the upper atmosphere'. Couldn't we develop some kind of algae that would gobble up the greenhouse gases?<br /><br />could a giant floating balloon in the clouds of venus be AI enough to monitor and fix itself without humans? i'd think it would be safer even starting with lunar colonisation to have some 'bots go and set the table for us.<br /><br />i'm curious about what things look like to humans on other planets. our eyes have evolved here on earth to perceive colors as affected by our atmosphere. when we send a camera to venus or mars, does it process the color the same as human eyes?<br /><br />what color does it look like on the surface of venus? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[qso1]

brellis:<br />qso, do you have some stories published? <br /><br />Me:<br />No. The illustration is from one set in the 2030s that I havn't finished yet.<br /><br />Gardining the upper atmosphere may be possible in the future and it probably could be some form of algae, or if humanity succeeds in creating life in a lab. It could be that kind of organism, but only time will tell.<br /><br />An AI capable balloon would probably be possible as well and no doubt that if we decide to set up shop in Venus atmosphere, there will be precursor robotic missions.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera_program<br />At the link above, there is a color image (Click on image for larger image) from Venera 13 which shows browns predominate. Note what appears to be the color cal strip which probably has blue on it but the blue is not apparent.<br /><br />IIRC, the reason blue doesn't show is that blue wavelengths are absorbed by Venus atmosphere in a manner not unlike how red is absorbed the further under water one goes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[brellis]

hiya qso<br />as always, thanks for imparting the knowledge<br /><br />the venera 7 looks like a giant soviet coffee mug, hehe.<br /><br />re: large intelligent structures, i keep thinking they'll come up with "Smart" tennis courts that "know" if you've foot-faulted, or if the ball is in or out, etc.<br /><br />how about "smart" roads that re-pave themselves when potholes appear?<br /><br />maybe we should colonize earth first, lol. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[qso1]

No problem. Although most of my knowledge is more or less technical projection of what might be within reasonable expectations. You've listed some other cool sounding projections with the Tennis courts and roads.<br /><br />Venera 7 does look kind of like a coffee mug now that you mention it. Those probes were designed with Venus tough environment in mind. Even then, their life expectancies are short. I often imagine electrical solder joints are among the first bits of hardware to start failing considering solder melts at something like 300 degrees F and the atmosphere of Venus at the surface is around three times that temp. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

While doing a search I came across these papers:<br /><br />http://www.lunar-reclamation.org/papers/venus_rehabpaper.htm<br /><br />The ideas presented there certainly aren't realistic for what we're capable of now, but some of them are quite interesting. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Very good thread. The atmosphere of Venus must undergo a serious mass loss programme & temperatures lowered.<br /><br />would it be possible to erect a huge sunshield, round & slightly larger than Venus itself, place it just in front of Venus blocking out the sun, then blasting a huge hole in the clouds to let out some heat?<br /><br />The Veneras do look like some coffe mugs, I agree fully.<br /><br />http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/html/group_page/VN.html<br /><br />http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/venera.html<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

3488:<br />would it be possible to erect a huge sunshield.<br /><br />Me:<br />Not with current or near term projectable technology. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Eventually, perhaps. I think the point needs to be made though (and stressed over and over again) that Venus as it is, right now, is perfectly fine for exploration and colonizing. People need to start thinking of it as a kind of big ocean - building a boat and sailing it doesn't mean that you need to try to live in the depths below. People can (and should) make probes to explore and check out what's down there of course but we need to get away from the attachment that a colony *must* be on the surface, because in this case the surface obviously isn't doing anyone any good.<br /><br />As for sunshields, it's interesting to note that a colony in the atmosphere would act as a sunshield as well to a certain extent, you'd just need a lot of them. But I'm not sure if Venus will ever be terraformed - since creating habitations in the clouds is way easier than terraforming the entire atmosphere I expect that we would have a huge population living in the clouds before we ever get around to changing the atmosphere. Not that we're ready for colonies yet, but colonies are still much much easier. Were there to be a large enough population they might grow attached to life up in the sky for all we know. I certainly might. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Hi, please give the thread a thorough reading one more time. You'll notice something that I mentioned in all caps:<br /><br />I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SURFACE OF VENUS.<br /><br />Has that been made clear? Please don't mention the surface, it has nothing to do with anything.<br /><br />If one more person fails to understand the simple point that I'm NOT talking about the surface I think I just might lose all faith in humanity and cry myself to sleep tonight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[lsbd]

What you all seem to fail to understand is that this guy doesn't want open, honest debate or ideas..he just wants someone to agree with his idea. His original post was asking for info/research etc on the colonization of venus. There isn't any because most reputable scientists don't consider that to be an option. So when the good people here at SDC try to help him out, he counters every idea that is contrary to his great plan. His idea is great and the sooner everyone agrees with him the sooner this will all be over. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[mithridates]

1) It's not my idea. You were right about looking for more sources being the point of the thread. You're wrong about me not encouraging debate. I don't care if you (you in general terms here) don't support the idea *as long as you don't bring up the surface because that's not the subject of the thread*. The surface is as relevant to the discussion here as the conditions on the top of Everest are to establishing a town by the ocean on Earth.<br />2) The person who has proposed the idea of colonization in the clouds just happens to be the person who also proposed the rovers that are still wandering around Mars almost a full two years after arrival. I suggest you give his ideas more credit. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/pressrel/2002/02-041.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

On a related note however, I must admit that I'm surprised to find so much resistance to the idea of exploring Venus on a board like this. No proposal calls for the manned exploration of Venus right this moment (as in during the next five years or so), and neither does any proposal call for the present exploration of Mars for that matter. What some of the original papers suggest is to first send solar flyers into the atmosphere where they can spend 24 hours a day collecting solar power both from above and below, in order to first collect more information on that part of the atmosphere where the air pressure and temperature are ideal. Since that would entail a cost no greater than the rovers currently on the surface of Mars (and the idea has been proposed by one of the people working on the rover project currently on Mars no less) I'm a bit surprised that no one even thinks it a worthy target of exploration. Sure, the surface is hell, but can we just keep it out of our minds for the moment and remind ourselves that there's a whole 20 km or so layer of clouds there where we can keep a probe flying around 24/7? Any debate on manned colonization would happen, as always, with the extra attention paid to new unmanned missions, and if there's no desire to go then so be it. Venus deserves at least the first steps in unmanned probes that can fly around that altitude though, does it not? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>