Question Does "dark matter" flow into black holes, and if not, why not?

[Unclear Engineer]

The concept of "dark matter" has been accepted as a form of matter that does not interact with light or with regular matter by any mechanism other than gravity. It is supposed to be heavily concentrated in galaxies, adding mass that increases the orbital speeds of stars and bends light as it passes by at a great distance.

However, I have not read about how it behaves, otherwise.

It seems to me that it should flow into black holes quite easily, considering that it does not absorb energy from the stars' radiation and apparently does not emit any radiation, itself.

So, unless it has some sort of self-repulsion, I would expect it to simply fall into black holes even more readily than visible matter does.

But, that would seem to be a process that would deplete the relative density of dark matter in the centers of galaxies, compared to the density of regular matter. Is that what we see?

Or, is there some need to infer some sort of self-repulsion by dark matter, so that it develops some sort of "dark pressure" that limits its density?

Thoughts?

 

[DrRaviSharma]

The concept of "dark matter" has been accepted as a form of matter that does not interact with light or with regular matter by any mechanism other than gravity. It is supposed to be heavily concentrated in galaxies, adding mass that increases the orbital speeds of stars and bends light as it passes by at a great distance.

However, I have not read about how it behaves, otherwise.

It seems to me that it should flow into black holes quite easily, considering that it does not absorb energy from the stars' radiation and apparently does not emit any radiation, itself.

So, unless it has some sort of self-repulsion, I would expect it to simply fall into black holes even more readily than visible matter does.

But, that would seem to be a process that would deplete the relative density of dark matter in the centers of galaxies, compared to the density of regular matter. Is that what we see?

Or, is there some need to infer some sort of self-repulsion by dark matter, so that it develops some sort of "dark pressure" that limits its density?

Thoughts?

Dark Matter is everywhere including where matter-energy is which we know is sparse and similarly where there is higher density of matter as in neutron stars or blackholes. DM creates all matter-energy from itself. Please see my April 13, 2022 post in this community.

 

[Ed Stauffer]

In my opinion Black holes are inside of space time and dark matter is not so it does not drain into a black hole. It can be condensed into Liquid Dark Matter(LDM) as it circulates through the galaxy. If the black hole becomes active it will cause the LDM to vaporize into Gaseous Dark Matter(GDM) which will lower the concentration of dark matter in the galaxy. The vaporized dark matter will blast out of the poles pulling regular matter with it. Eventually the turbulence on the edges of the jets will cause entrained LDM to vaporize Which will reheat and further accelerate the jets. Once the jets run out of LDM they will mushroom out coalesce with gas/dust and rain back down if not on this galaxy on the next one that comes down the filament.

 

[DrRaviSharma]

Ed
Greetings!
Adjectives LDM GDM apply to what is matter, other than the fact that Gravity is created while matter-energy are being formed by DM, there are no such attributes directly associated with DM. However, DM to Matter Energy (ME) transformation will exhibit properties of those phases in which the created ME comes into being or during the transformation.

Thanks.
Ravi
(Dr. Ravi Sharma, Ph.D. USA)
NASA Apollo Achievement Award
Chair, Ontology Summit 2022
Particle and Space Physics
Senior Enterprise Architect

 

[Classical Motion]

From the images I have seen, the center of our galaxy appears to be a rotating braid of plasma. I'll bet it has a net positive charge. And I'll bet the center of that spin has a humongous magnetic dipole field. I'd say any wondering charge that got inside that ring, would be accelerated N and S of the rotation. Who knows, it might be fed on a regular basis. The electrons would be charged and contracted to the proton level, anti-protons. Then gamma radiation could proceed. But we get two gigantic galactic bubbles of fuel. If those two bubbles discharged......it would put a super nova to shame. The ultimate destruction. A little, big bang.

It could have already happened thousands of years ago, and we not know it.

The past we haven't seen yet.

 

[Helio]

I would think DM could be drawn into any gravity well, including BHs. The reason it would be hard to find much on this is because both are invisible. We must infer their presence. Surrounding visible matter reveals a BH, or gravity waves in tight binaries. But what would reveal the accreting of DM?

 

[billslugg]

Here is an article says Dark Matter is not drawn into Black Holes. If it did, the distribution of Black Holes and galaxies would be much different than it is.

"“Over the billions of years since galaxies formed, such runaway absorption of dark matter in black holes would have altered the population of galaxies away from what we actually observe,” said Hernandez

Astronomers Find Black Holes Do Not Absorb Dark Matter (universetoday.com)

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Billslugg, I get a "forbidden" message when I click on your link. Is there another way to find the article?

The idea that black matter does not flow into black holes seems contrary to the idea that it does not interact with regular matter, but has gravitational attraction to regular matter and itself.

I get conflicting statements from the "Internet explainers", whom I distinguish from actual theorists, about the distribution of dark matter around galaxies. Some seem to think that it is in more of a hollow halo around galaxies than in a blob centered in galaxies. If that is true, then it would seem reasonable to suspect depletion of the dark matter near the center as it could be drawn into the black hole in some fashion different than the behavior we see for regular matter. Otherwise, it would need to have some sort of self-repulsion to limit its density.

If we want to learn what it really is, it seems to me that we need to understand why it has the distribution(s) that we can detect.

Otherwise, it is stil just a fudge factor that is allowed to do whatever it is "needed" to do to make the cosmological model work as presently conceived.

 

[billslugg]

google "do black holes suck in dark matter" and the link I included will be at top of the list. It will work OK.
Here is the peer reviewed article they are reporting on but it is a bit dense.
1002.0553.pdf (arxiv.org)

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Thanks for the paper link. I read it, and, as I understand it, the paper assumes that dark matter does get captured by black holes. It uses a lot of assumptions and calculations to infer that dark matter could not exceed a specific density in the past without causing runaway accretion of dark matter into black holes that would have depleted the density of dark matter halos below what we "observe" today. I put "observe" in quotes because we actually can't observe it, we can only infer it from observations of regular matter.

It would have been nice if the authors had illustrated their paper with radial density curves of dark matter, but they did not. So, we are left with trying to interpret some rather nebulous language about where in the galaxies dark matter has various densities, n their opinion.

Anyway, it seems that the assumption is that dark matter gets captured by black holes similarly to regular matter. And, given the other numerous assumptions, I would not take this paper as a "proof" that dark matter could not have exceeded their limiting value in the past. That seems at odds with the idea that dark matter was created in a big bang and expanded to its current density profile. But, that same problem occurs with regular matter, and is "handled" in the theory by unbridled assumptions about the effects of "inflation".

One of the questions in my mind when I read things like this is whether the authors/theorists have addressed all of the issues related to their study. For instance, when I see papers that claim that relativistic frame dragging of rotating visible matter alone can account for star velocities in galaxies, and compare that to arguments that infer dark matter to provide the explanation for galactic star velocities, I wonder if anybody is asking themselves what the effect of the dark matter would be on the frame dragging effect. If dark matter does exist, then it seems that the proper solution should include its additional effect on the frame dragging caused by rotating matter with gravitational attraction. But, I have not seen that addressed, so I don't know if it is normally included or not. The current Big Bang Theory sometimes reminds me of the old joke about the group of blind men trying to describe an elephant by each just touching single parts of it - and disagreeing on the results.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

OK, I read the article from the Google search, and it puts a different "spin" on the conclusions, saying that dark matter probably needs to be thought of as having some limit on how it gets absorbed by black holes.

I also read some of the other articles from the search. They really aren't very convincing. The one from "Ask Ethan" (https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...les-and-dark-matter-interact/?sh=1a3862f33994 ) uses the current inferred distribution of dark matter to "show" that dark matter does not contribute most of the mass of a black hole. But, it really doesn't show why the current distribution of dark matter around a galaxy could not be the result of the dark matter near the center already being depleted by capture into the black hole. It just does not have any explanation for why normal matter "dominates" the center of galaxies while dark matter dominates the much larger outer regions, even well beyond where visible matter is hardly noticeable.

It doesn't take much of a stretch of imagination to wonder if there was an early runaway of dark matter coalescing into black holes that kick started galaxy formation in the early universe, which then stopped or slowed for some reason. That might help the folks who are staring to get squeezed on time for galactic formation between the current model predictions and the new Webb observations.

Not that I am encouraging such things, but I note that we know so little about dark matter that theorists could make up just about any "rules" about how it behaves, and those would not be any more speculative than the introduction of "inflation" that makes all of space do the things necessary to make the BBT "work".

So, what I do like to see is the first type of paper that at least looks at the ramifications of some of the ideas to help contrain the speculative "fitting" to some extent.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Here is one of the papers that looks at very early black holes:
https://www.universetoday.com/15991...easting-800-million-years-after-the-big-bang/ It looks like a very active black hole feeding in a rather low-mass galaxy.

So, it does seem to me to be very likely that there was some sort of transition in the behavior of black holes within the visible universe. We can see extremely active black holes, "Quasars", in the distant universe, but apparantly not in the nearest, most recent time frame. So, some sort of change seems likely with time, rather than just assuming it was like it is here and now, just closer together 13 billion years ago.

 

[MantleMan]

Antihydrogen fusion is a twelve foot ringed converting antihelium to aether or spacetime or dark energy in the configuration of the fusion or Fibonacci Spiral from our parallel electromagnetic field or plasma tubes creating atmospheric sprites in three energy levels hence Nikola Tesla’s 3-6-9. https://youtube.com/shorts/VVXGTkG5MTA?feature=share

 

[Bernd Huber]

Yes dark matter does flow and get caught in black holes, which is what (via the dark matter based, dynamic particle flow structure that's called the cosmic web) drives the acceleration labeled with the dark energy term (and the expansion rate development curve fits nicely to the number and growth of black holes throughout the last billions of years, initially super-massive black holes with the steeped increase and then another increase as stellar black holes are forming after a long break since the formation of the primordial black holes, since stars took a while to slowly start finishing in higher and higher numbers their fusion processes to collapse and lead to further stellar black hole formation), since dark matter is cosmic neutrinos, as I explained here: https://forums.space.com/threads/resolution-of-the-dark-matter-mystery.61868/ .

 

[DrRaviSharma]

Once DM leaves its hidden state, it can manifest anywhere and from the distribution of Matter-Energy we can see that it is sporadic and not streamlined except in exceptional cases conglomerates as we see in astrophysics.

Therefore I agree that in DM state, phases do not exist nut in matter-energy they do.
Just a few more weeks till I submit theory for publication that will hopefully clarify some of these aspects except Black holes, these are extreme gravitational dense objects as extreme examples of only bulk matter that forms at late state of Matter-Energy manifestation.

 

[Questioner]

The concept of "dark matter" has been accepted as a form of matter that does not interact with light or with regular matter by any mechanism other than gravity. It is supposed to be heavily concentrated in galaxies, adding mass that increases the orbital speeds of stars and bends light as it passes by at a great distance.

However, I have not read about how it behaves, otherwise.

It seems to me that it should flow into black holes quite easily, considering that it does not absorb energy from the stars' radiation and apparently does not emit any radiation, itself.

So, unless it has some sort of self-repulsion, I would expect it to simply fall into black holes even more readily than visible matter does.

But, that would seem to be a process that would deplete the relative density of dark matter in the centers of galaxies, compared to the density of regular matter. Is that what we see?

Or, is there some need to infer some sort of self-repulsion by dark matter, so that it develops some sort of "dark pressure" that limits its density?

Thoughts?

This is an excellent question.
What are the properties of this hypothetical matter?
Now let the self anointed 'authorities' buffalo chip their way around the hard question.

i am virtually certain 'dark matter' is bunk,
but it does create an interesting idea.

Now for my fantasy nonsense response.

A cloud of 'dark matter' takes on [for lack of a better term] 'polarized' state.
Within the interior of the cloud it is immune to gravity, but it only is stimulated to respond to gravity by the opposite ' polarity' on the surface of an external cloud of gravity.

So while 'dark matter' creates gravity wherever it is,
it only selectively responds to gravity,
hence in its interior, where the black hole is it is immune to gravity.

Who knew!
"Selective Gravity"
sheer genius.

 

[Questioner]

Oops,
"...external cloud of gravity."
should read,
"...external cloud of 'dark matter'."

 

[DrRaviSharma]

My answers are coming soon in a paper just a month or so aways will show and clarify the gravitational and Electromagnetic properties of matter starting from DM.
Regards
Thanks.
Ravi
(Dr. Ravi Sharma, Ph.D. USA)
NASA Apollo Achievement Award
Ontolog Board of Trustees
Particle and Space Physics
Senior Enterprise Architect

 

[Questioner]

The concept of "dark matter" has been accepted as a form of matter that does not interact with light or with regular matter by any mechanism other than gravity. It is supposed to be heavily concentrated in galaxies, adding mass that increases the orbital speeds of stars and bends light as it passes by at a great distance.

However, I have not read about how it behaves, otherwise.

It seems to me that it should flow into black holes quite easily, considering that it does not absorb energy from the stars' radiation and apparently does not emit any radiation, itself.

So, unless it has some sort of self-repulsion, I would expect it to simply fall into black holes even more readily than visible matter does.

But, that would seem to be a process that would deplete the relative density of dark matter in the centers of galaxies, compared to the density of regular matter. Is that what we see?

Or, is there some need to infer some sort of self-repulsion by dark matter, so that it develops some sort of "dark pressure" that limits its density?

Thoughts?

 

[Questioner]

Heck,
why even fiddle around with matter at all?
make it a [previously described] cloud of polarizible gravitons instead.

 

[Impaler]

The concept of "dark matter" has been accepted as a form of matter that does not interact with light or with regular matter by any mechanism other than gravity. It is supposed to be heavily concentrated in galaxies, adding mass that increases the orbital speeds of stars and bends light as it passes by at a great distance.

However, I have not read about how it behaves, otherwise.

It seems to me that it should flow into black holes quite easily, considering that it does not absorb energy from the stars' radiation and apparently does not emit any radiation, itself.

So, unless it has some sort of self-repulsion, I would expect it to simply fall into black holes even more readily than visible matter does.

But, that would seem to be a process that would deplete the relative density of dark matter in the centers of galaxies, compared to the density of regular matter. Is that what we see?

Or, is there some need to infer some sort of self-repulsion by dark matter, so that it develops some sort of "dark pressure" that limits its density?

Thoughts?

While I do not belive current Dark matter theory (or Blackholes as classically described as objects compressed blow the Swartzchild radius either), the nature of the WIMP Darkmatter theory, that a massive particle which dosen't interact with any forces other then gravity, would actually result in the opposite of your assumption.

A particle without thouse interactions dose not expereince collisions, their fore it dosn't exchange or lose kinetic energy and dose not slow down. It would simply orbit a black hole forever. Remember that normal matter can not undergo gravitational collapse without radiating away energy, nor can it fall into a blackhole without first forming an accretinary disk which expereinces collisions, frictional heating and radiation. This nessesity to radiate to collapse is why I don't think a blackhole can ever actually form. The body would be choking off it's own radiation outlet and would asymtotically approach but never cross the Swartzchild radius. All our observations are consistent with this near-blackhole object, but singularities and event-horizons are absent.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

I understand what you are saying about dark matter needing to shed energy in order to gravitationally collapse. But, it is not clear that it can or cannot shed energy. For instance, CERN is currently looking for "dark photons".

Anyway, dark matter seems to have some sort of property that draws it together effectively, or I would expect it to be evenly distributed in the universe, not concentrated around masses of non-dark matter. Otherwise, every dark matter particle would simply have on "open orbit" around anything that gravitationally attracted it, dark or not dark matter.

At least, that works outside of a black hole event horizon. But, if the open orbit of a dark particle goes inside the event horizon, then what? Would it be able to emerge, somehow? How?

I am not claiming to know the answers. I am just looking at what is being attributed to "dark matter" and wondering how it can do what some theorists are using it to do while not doing other things that are not so convenient to their theories.

 

[Ed Stauffer]

Short answer: it doesn’t enter black holes because it is outside of spacetime.
Long answer follows:
Over the last 40 years I used the If -Then process on all the science I read until I had a theory that tied everything together cosmologically. I finished this year and decided to downsize to the solar system as a test at a smaller scale. To my surprise I found evidence of climate change on all of the planets which fit with my belief of how dark matter moves. I believe if dark matter is the cause there are things we can do to reduce the dark matter circulation to the earth and control the climate by converting some to energy or redirecting some to Mars to warm it and cool the Earth.

The reason that we can not find dark matter is that some is outside of spacetime and some composes the fabric of spacetime.

Around the sun there is a churning sphere of dark matter that extends to the Alfven limit and is rotating around the barycenter of the solar system. The more offset between the 2 spheres the more turbulence is generated. More turbulence means more LDM phase transition and much like a pot of water boiling over, the bigger the sphere of DM encasing the sun becomes. These two co-rotating spheres with different centres of gravity and the varying size of the dark matter sphere(Alfven limit) may be responsible for the butterfly effect of the sunspot patterns.

All of the planets in the solar system cause tides on this sea of dark matter. Jupiter has the most pull by an order of magnitude followed by Venus at double the Earth’s pull which is slightly more than Saturn’s.

Dark matter is always raining down into the suns gravity well and clouds of dark matter are also constantly overflowing the gravity well. Some clouds are carried by the solar wind and some influenced by the tides of the planets. When there are conjunctions there are more clouds heading in that direction due to the increased tidal bulge of the dark matter sphere. These clouds are composed of a mixture of Liquid (LDM) and Gaseous (GDM) Dark Matter. When LDM reaches a low enough value of gravity and velocity it vaporizes releases heat outside of spacetime and expands explosively becoming one of the primary drivers of the LDM circulation. The GDM that is accelerated further into the sun is condensed by the increasing gravity, absorbs heat and continues to circulate. If these vortices reach the zero G equivalent they vaporize and like CO2 in your soda head out of the gravity well. The majority leaves through the poles of the sun as GDM some condenses back to LDM on the way out cooling the suns poles and some causes sunspots and both result in more intense bursts of the solar wind as it collapses outward. I believe the heat transfer is accomplished by waves of Quarks and Leptons vibrating in and out of spacetime each one transferring heat into spacetime in the process.

The outward accelerated dark matter separates with higher concentrations of LDM near the plane of the solar system while the GDM tends to float up and away from the gravity well. If it encounters an object with enough mass it can condense and if that objects gravity well overflows it will form clouds of gas/dust/dark matter which will eventually rain back down into the gravity well. The LDM that encounters planets will fall into their gravity well only to be spun off again or flashed into GDM with the released heat transferred back into spacetime. The LDM that doesn’t encounter anything will eventually slow to a stop and fall back into the gravity well. This evaporation and condensation is what causes the circulation in the universe. This not radioactive decay is the long term source of heat at the center of all objects.