Enceladus's soup

[JonClarke]

Detected in the south polar water plume:<br /><br />Nitrogen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, methane (all percent levels), plus traces of ammonia, acetylene, hydrogen, cyanide, and propane.<br /><br />http://planetary.org/news/2007/0322_Chemistry_and_Physics_Suggest_a_Soup.html<br /><br />Who needs Europa?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I think this is one of the most exciting astrobiological developments for a long time. On Enceladus we have long term liquid water, reduced nitrogen and carbon compounds, energy sources, all the precursors of prebiotic synthesis. the presence of propane and acetylene shows that some synthesis has already occurred. Enceladus is everything that Europa was supposed to be.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

Enceladus may be Old Faithful, but Europa is The Atlantic Ocean. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene old]

That is sure an interesting article! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

And I found this SDC article pretty interesting regarding Saturn's rotation rate. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>Enceladus may be Old Faithful, but Europa is The Atlantic Ocean.</i><br /><br />The trouble is we don't know that. The mobile layer on Europa may simply be warm, plastic ice. If there is an ocean it may be many km down and completely inaccessible. The ocean or lake on Enceladus that feeds these jets is muich more accessible.<br /><br />Remember that most of the hype about Europa was post Voyager but pre galileo, when it was hoped that Europa would have a very thin ice crust and might well have active vents like Enceladus has. Galileo disproved that. We likewise have to be cautious that we don't over hype Europa.<br /><br />One more thing to consider is the impact of this discovery on the disposal plans for Cassini. Given the care taken to dispose of Galileo because of the very remote possibility of contaminating Europa, I think the fate of Cassini may well be to burn up in Saturn's atmosphere.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Wasn't there talk awhile back about the possibility of slingshotting Cassini out of the Solar System altogether? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Vaguely.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

APOD from 3/27/07 <br /><br /> link <br /><br />"Explanation: The active moon Enceladus appears to be making Saturn's E ring. An amazing picture showing the moon at work was taken late last year by the Saturn-orbiting Cassini spacecraft and is shown below. Enceladus is the dark spot inside the bright flare, right near the center of Saturn's E ring. Streams of ice and water vapor can be seen pouring off Enceladus into the E ring. The below bright image of the normally faint E-ring was made possible by aligning Cassini so that Saturn blocked the Sun. From that perspective, small ring particles reflect incoming sunlight more efficiently. Cassini has now been orbiting Saturn for almost three years, and is scheduled to swoop by the unexpectedly cryovolcanic Enceladus at least several more times. " <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

Breathtaking. That is one of the coolest pictures I have ever seen. Thanks for posting.

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"...one of the coolest pictures I have ever seen..."</font><br /><br />I agree. It makes the relationship between Enceladus and the E-ring very clear. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

It the heating is radiogenic as seems to be likely then I suggest the soup is stewing as we speaking. Heating or irridiating a mixture of water ammonia and methane will produce a range of organic compounds in hours. <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

One question came to mind that is not stated in the accomanying commentary is which direction is little E <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> moving in the picture. It looks to me like it's "up" on the image, but wouldn't want to asssume that. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The big vent is near the south pole, right? In the photo that is point towards the bottom. Thus north is "up". Therefore Enceladus is moving in an anticlockwise direction "down" and to the "right" following the E ring.<br /><br />I think this is a lovely illustration of a pciture worth a thosuand words. On photo shows better 9for me anyway) that hundreds of pages of text and equations why Enceladus is the source of the E ring. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Hmmm, my interpretation is different, that the bright spot below is the trailing "coma", and the structure visible "below" is downstream from the source.<br /><br />I admit, I do not know, that's why I asked the question.<br /><br />Do you know, or are you just interpreting the image as I am?<br /><br />One of us (or our other friends) will have to find out.<br /><br />I might have time after dinner <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

on the picture at the very left end looks like there is some other moon there and quite big too<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I don't think people are talking about the core being radioactive enough to cause isotopic changes in other elements. It just has to be warm enough to melt the ice.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[spacester]

I went through the article and I have a "stupid question"<br /><br />Why is it still there? Enceladus, that is.<br /><br />If it's been spewing mass at this rate for millions of years, wouldn't it have spewed itself out, so to speak?<br /><br />Did it just recently start spewing?<br /><br />Is mass being recycled back from the e-ring to Enceladus?<br /><br />Does mass swap back and forth between the moon and the ring over long time periods?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

The ammonia may be breaking down in the plume in space to form hydrogen and nitrogen.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

All very interesting questions! <br /><br />Have you seen any nnumbers for the amount of mass being ejected? It would be interesting to see whhat it would add up to over time.<br /><br />We don't know whether the jets are active the whole time, or just some of the time. Rr whether is is a small example or a large one.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Jon, I had read this in a journal article (but sorry cannot find the reference - <i>Science</i>?). The amount gravitationally being lost by the moon was a 'lot', but then again, not that much either. My recollection was in the order of a million kg / day. At that rate, Enceladus could spew for billions of years. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Only reference I could find. I wonder what "most' means. Assuming 'most' means 90%, this would means Enceladus is losing 7.8 million kg water / day. Assuming the moon's mass is 1.08E20 kg (actually I have seen huge discrepencies in various references for the mass, ranging from 1E19 to 1E21, but I think most modern estimates are about 1E20), then it would take 38 billion years to fully deplete the moon's mass.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>"During the July 14 close flyby we began getting signatures, far from Enceladus, of water ejection. From the deflections we could measure of the ionized gas in the magnetosphere, it was erupting at 100 kg per second (220 lbs per second), and the data are consistent with measurements from the spacecraft's other instruments. It is actual H20 molecules," said Tokar.<br /><br />Enceladus is a small moon, but highly reflective due to the fresh layer of snow and ice on its surface. Tokar suggests that the icy geysers at the south pole, erupting from a series of cracks, are pumping a continuous flow of water particles into the area above the moon. <font color="yellow">Much of the material falls back to the surface as snow.</font>p><hr /></p></blockquote><br /><br />Another reference says<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Outgassing from the tiger stripe region appears to be responsible for the diffuse E-ring of Saturn. And estimates of the outgassing rate are pretty extreme. One estimate cited by Spencer is Jeff Kargel's work suggesting that, at the presently observed outgassing rate, 20% of Enceladus's mass may have been outgassed over 4 billion years. John also mentioned a new hypothesis put forward by Francis Nimmo and Bob Pappalardo that the south polar region may be explained by a single large diapir (a diapir is a blob of moving material that is akin to a teardrop-shaped bubble of molten</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[spacester]

<img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /><br /><br />I like asking stupid questions. I'll be doing more of that in the future.<br /><br />To my eye, looking at that plume, it seemed like it can't keep up that rate of spew for Billions of years. But that's why we have Planetary Scientists, isn't it? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks for the numbers, it's a start.<br /><br />I think Enceladus might be my new favorite moon.<br /><br />Another question. I want to be the first to ask this one, at least here <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Are there any diapirs on Uranus?<br /><br />hehehehe good one beavis hehehehe <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Silly boy, ask an astronaut <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[brellis]

<font color="yellow">it can't keep up that rate of spew for Billions of years. </font><br /><br />I'm not so sure. You see, there was a rush party at the SAE fraternity years ago... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>