Europe pledges support for planned Russian spacecraft

[wvbraun]

Link<br /><br />Good. Now if the politicians give the go ahead we might actually be getting somewhere...

 

[JonClarke]

this is an excellent and much needed development. Win-win for everybody.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[SpaceKiwi]

As Werner said, provided the European politicians stump up with some cash, it is definitely great news. That could potentially be the tricky part. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><font size="2" color="#ff0000">Who is this superhero?  Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!</font></em></p><p><em><font size="2">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></em></p><p><font size="5">Bring Back The Black!</font></p> </div>

 

[spacester]

So if every single space enthusiast thinks it's great news, it must be great news, right? I happen to think it's great news.<br /><br />"The pressure is building." - Yeah, I like that. The new space race is dawning. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Most welcome.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Hi, my first post here.<br /><br />Yes, this is great news. I seriously doubt that the politicians are crazy enough not to support such an opportunity especially given the political will to strengthen relations with Russia.<br /><br />One interesting thing I found was that on the Russian media there was a quote I think from the deputy head of the Russian Space Agency giving the first high level confirmation that Kliper will be designed from the outset to launch from ESA’s space centre at Kourou as well as Russian centre’s. The Kliper was originally designed to be launched by the Onega, an R-7 upgrade but since funding for that never got off the ground Energia stripped down the Kliper and cut it’s capabilities to fit the Ukrainian Zenit.<br /><br />I went on to the Russian Space Agency website (in Russian) and saw this article on the meeting on which your article, wvbraun was commenting.LINK If I’m not mistaken there is a picture of Jean Jacques Dordain holding up the Onega plan. Could part of the deal be for the development of the Onega too? It would make sense, ESA would then only need to upgrade the Soyuz launch pad instead of opening negotiations on use of the Zenit and building a new launch pad. If ESA is going to support Onega it would mean the better original version will be used.<br /><br />This could be a brilliant partnership. I only hope for more like it in the future. <br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

Welcome Alpha_Centauri. I hope your enjoy your visits here.<br /><br />I was very interested in what you said about Kliper being stripped down to be compatable with Zenit. Given that Zenit has a 15 tonne to LEO capability, what is the proposed capability of Onager? What capabilities were pared down for the Zenit <br />version?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[wvbraun]

Welcome aboard, alpha. <br /><br />"This could be a brilliant partnership. I only hope for more like it in the future. "<br /><br />I hope that Europe funds development of the Kliper but I also hope that we will continue to cooperate with the US. Not because NASA needs our support (they don't) but because I'm very concerned about the political situation in Russia today. Hopefully things will change for the better once Putin is no longer president.<br /><br />

 

[alpha_centauri]

Thanks for the welcome<br /><br />@JonClarke,<br />As far as I know Zenit has around a 13.5 tonne payload capacity, at least that’s the figure I’ve seen. That would be consistent with the new Kliper requirement of a spacecraft mass of 13 instead of about 14.5 tonnes.<br /><br />To be honest not much seemingly has been released about Onega. What is known is that it is meant to have double the lift capability of the current Soyuz launcher utilising a high-energy Lox/LH2 upper stage which would give it around 14.5 tonnes of payload. Between the first announcement and some month’s later things like Kliper’s cargo capacity, the duration of autonomous flight and a reduction in mass of the re-entry capsule so it could be launched on a Zenit.<br /><br />Also there seems to be plans to make the ship modular with plans to eventually make the Kliper Hermes-esk by adding wings as shown in the pictures from Energia. It would make sense to use Onega as Europe could fund more developments to improve the launch system if modifications to Kliper are needed. I’m not saying there is a massive difference but I think using Onega would allow for slightly increased capability and future modification to the Kliper system.<br /><br />@wvbraun,<br />Oh yes of course we should cooperate with the US. Projects like Cassini show how productive these can be. Though saying that, IMO things like Cassini show why this is not enough. Americans at all levels were a bit concerned by Europe taking the limelight for once even if we were only a relatively small part of the whole mission. The fact is NASA has no interest in working on joint projects where it doesn’t take the lion’s share of the work (and hence experience) or at least the lion’s share of the credit. Not only that but the US regularly refused to take ESA astronauts and also makes things harder with ITAR. In fact I’m surprised ESA didn’t decide to go it alone on the planned Mars Rover sooner. NASA will only really take cooperation seriously wit

 

[shoogerbrugge]

somehow I doubt that Russia / Energia is so willing to use the Zenit booster to launch the Klipper. You have to keep in mind that much of the Zenit is build and designed by yuzhnoye, an ukrainian company. <br /><br />Using such a booster would go against the current trend in Russia to "nationalise" boosters and the space industry. With Nationalise I mean replacing now foreign parts in boosters by Russian produced parts (as done in the Soyuz 2 recently launched) and making it diffucult for certain companies to compete on the world market by barring their launches (as done with the Dnepr cluster launch planned for May but cancelled after news reports appeared from RSA that certain companies should not offer launch under world market prices)<br /><br />By the way, if you are really intrested in the performance of the current Zenit 2 (the 2 stage version launched from Biakonur) you can go to the following website, its in English but slow. <br /><br />http://www.yuzhnoye.com/index_e.htm<br /><br /><br />I do wonder what kind of cooperation between ESA and energia will be drawn up and how the roles and funds will be divided. I am particulary thinking of controlling and tracking the flow of funds......<br />

 

[JonClarke]

Thanks Alpha_Centauri.<br /><br />So there is about a 1 tonne difference between Zenit and Onager. That is quite a bit.<br /><br />Complete agreement on all your other points.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[gofer]

As far as I know they've also looked at Angara-3 as a Klipper launcher. The Angara is apparently a high profile recently government backed project so chances of that flying are high. Although, the progress on that launcher is unclear... http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara3.html and it's from Khrunichev an old rival of Energia... Krunichev has got its own 6 person 'CEV' derived from the TKS project... <br /><br />Also, theoretically, Zenits could be produced in the "R-7" samara factories, apparently full documentation was distributed there as well during the USSR years, and given that the first stage engines and the upper stage are Russian they could possibly build their own version specifically for the Klipper. But, AFAIK, Yuzhnoe contains the tank and structure machining shop, and assembly lines and the tooling for the first 2 stages. But then the samara Soyuz launcher factory is probably better leveraged with the Onega... esp. given the Kouru launch pad as has been mentioned. <br /><br />I think they should also subcontract Arianespace and Sea Launch for Klipper launches as well. Orbital plane flexibility and a little tropical ocean cruise for the astronauts won't go amiss <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> but they'll need a sort of 'universal adapter'/interstage, seems easy enough. <br />

 

[syndroma]

AFAIK, current plans are to develop vehicle which can be launched both from Baikonur and Kouru. Baikonur has a variety of heavy launch pads - Zenit, Proton and a new launch pad for Angara family funded by Kazakhs.<br /><br />On the other end, Kouru has only one launch pad for heavy LV - Ariane one. I doubt Europeans would build pad for Zenit or fund development of Onega since these LVs will eventually compete with Ariane on commercial launch market. So, more likely Kliper'll ride Ariane from Kouru.<br /><br />As for Zenit, it's more political than technical problem. There're political tensions between countries, so Russians would better cooperate with Europeans or Kazakhs than with Ukrainians.<br /><br />Onega stays in papers, while Angara is being funded by the military, even some pieces of hardware were built. IMHO, Angara-3 has all the chances to become Kliper LV.

 

[nacnud]

Kouru has, or soon will have, a Soyuz launch pad that will be capable of supporting manned Soyuz launches. IIRC the Onega uses the same pad as the Soyuz. <br /><br />I don’t see the need to modify the Ariane vehicle and infrastructure to support manned launches if a separate facility is being built next door. <br /><br />The problem is that details of the Onega are still sketchy, if it is just a new LOX/H2 upper stage then it doesn’t sound like too much of a problem. Especially considering the experience gained in Europe with the development of the new LOX/H2 upper stage for the Ariane V ESC-A.<br />

 

[syndroma]

The problem of the Onega is that it doesn't exist. It's just the RKK Energia wish for their own LV, to have their piece of the world launch market. But nobody funds it.<br />Energia doesn't have enough resources to make Onega itself, other space companies don't want one more competitor and government already funds Angara of the same class.

 

[nacnud]

But Angara is also a paper rocket, as far as I am aware they have the first stage engine but no more. Now it looks like the Kliper is going to get funding (pending Decembers ESA review) a decision on which rocket to use is needed.<br /><br />If Europe is funding the Kliper I think that they would like to be able to launch it from Kouru, which favours the Onega. In reality whether the Kliper will be launched on Onega, Zenith, Angara, or even Ariane V is still to be decided, and you guess is as good (probably better) than mine.

 

[syndroma]

Yes, the exact configuration is yet to be chosen. And none of the possibilities can be excluded now.<br /><br />There're not much information on the Angara current status, just this picture:<br />http://www.khrunichev.ru/khrunichev/upload/contents/315/angara.jpg<br /><br />Also, the military are building launch pad for it in Plesetsk for several years (spending money!). And kazakhs started to build the same pad in Baikonur recently (spending money!). And ILS already bought marketing rights on Angara for $86 millions.<br />So, Khrunichev Center better build up the Angara, or many people become slightly upset. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[daniko]

Hi there !<br /><br />I've just spotted a news from the "LE BOURGET" exhibition.<br />http://www.rian.ru/economy/20050614/40517838.html<br />It's in russian and there the new president of the Energia corporation was cited that a possible choice for Kliper launcher is the modernized Soyuz-2. <br /><br />This is the english version:<br />http://en.rian.ru/science/20050614/40521455.html<br />but I thing it's not a very good translation

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"...was cited that a possible choice for Kliper launcher is the modernized Soyuz-2."</font><br /><br />I don't see how that's possible. The Soyuz-2 payload to LEO is supposed to be 9,000-9,200 kg (absolute max -- when launched from Kourou). This is either 9-9.2 ton (metric) or 10.1 (US short ton). The launch mass of the Kliper is supposed to be 13 tons (even according to that article). Of course Kliper isn't built yet -- but I'd think they know the mass to within 4 tons by now...

 

[nacnud]

A yet to be developed LOX/H2 upperstage?

 

[mrmorris]

<font color="yellow">"LOX/H2 upperstage"</font><br /><br />Anything is possible, I suppose. I'd sooner suspect a goof by the speaker, though.

 

[alpha_centauri]

The Soyuz-2 would be the base vehicle from which the proposed Onega would be adapted. It's probably not a mistake, by Soyuz-2 he most likely meant the upgrade, Onega.