Explosion/deaths @ Mojave Air/Space-port

[jschaef5]

I didn't hear an explosion but I am ~10 miles away but even if I had i would have tuned it out seeing as how sonic booms happen multiple times a day here...<br /><br />Prayers are with the Scaled team and the families of those who died. I know a couple people who work up there and hope they are safe. <br /><br />I wonder if Rutan was up in Oshkosh or how many of the Scaled team is up there right now. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[frodo1008]

Come now Boris, Jimfromnsf is just to some extent expressing what a lot of others (not only on these boards, but throughout the industry) are thinking. While we ALL feel a great amount of sympathy for those involved (I am certain that includes Jimfromnsf as well) we also realize that this does represent a real difficult setback for the alt.space crowd. <br /><br />I am equally certain that Rutan and Scaled Composites will indeed overcome this, but this just shows that the way may not be quit as clear for these ventures as some would wish (including myself). <br /><br />Just as men like Burt Rutan and Elon Musk are more than willing to take applause when things go well, they must then expect to have to take criticisms when they don't. And today was certainly one of those times!!<br /><br />IT IS indeed tragic, but I am certain that things will still go forward. Just as NASA has had to overcome great tragedy and go on, so will alt.space!!

 

[nwade]

Just a footnote regarding holmec's comment on the SS1 team-member death: Dave was lost when testing his own experimental aircraft on his own time. This is not intended to cheapen his loss - but I think this may be the first time in 25+ years that Burt's company has lost people during the development of a company vehicle. I hope the company, the staff, and VG all weather the coming PR storm that will inevitably add to the pain of the tragedy. :-/<br /><br />Take care,<br /><br />--Noel<br />

 

[Testing]

AP <br />Rutan said the blast did not involve a rocket firing but happened during a test of the flow of nitrous oxide through an injector in the course of testing components for a new rocket motor for the upcoming SpaceShipTwo.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

Thank you frodo

 

[docm]

My condolences too.<br /><br />As for the explosion; if this was during tanking up that happens many, many times a year with all manner of fuels & gasses. Earlier this week a hole was blown in central Dallas when an acetylene tank was being filled. The cause: a failed valve.<br /><br />My point is that such things can happen in the total absence of "hubris". The fault could just as easily lie with the NOx delivery equipment itself or its owner/operator.<br /><br />Jim and the other people who prematurely used this event to criticize Rutan or the Scaled team in the absence of <i><b>facts</b></i> should be ashamed of themselves. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<font color="yellow"> Come now Boris, Jimfromnsf is just to some extent expressing what a lot of others (not only on these boards, but throughout the industry) are thinking. </font><br /><br />Bull!!! People just died & the first thing he says is Burt Rutan is arrogant. Please point out the sympathy displayed in this post.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Hubris caught up with Mr. Rutan. Maybe now he will tone down his criticism of NASA and the USAF. The first death at the Cape didn't happen until 1958 (8 years after the 1st launch), and it was an construction worker. The first deaths cause by processing spaceflight hardware was in 1964. </font><br /><br />You can't because he is not showing any. <br />You expressed sympathy for the injured & killed. By your words we can tell what you are thinking. Jim did not express any sympathetic sentiment, only base criticism & adolescent name calling & has defended his stance. This is the act of an insensitive person.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

"Jim and the other people who prematurely used this event to criticize Rutan or the Scaled team in the absence of facts should be ashamed of themselves."<br /><br /><br />Facts are there are no accidents.<br /><br />Hubris is not thinking they won't happen<br /><br />Here's the latest from the Associated Press:<br /><br />"Rutan said the blast did not involve a rocket firing but happened during a test of the flow of nitrous oxide through an injector in the course of testing components for a new rocket motor for the upcoming SpaceShipTwo.<br /><br />Rutan gave little additional information about the test, but said it had been done safely many times during the SpaceShipOne program and had been done once before for the SpaceShipTwo program.<br /><br />"We were doing a test we believe was safe. We don't know why it exploded. We just don't know," he said."<br /><br />Pretty damning words "we believe it was safe"<br /><br />There is no "believing", it is or it isn't<br /><br />Things that are static don't go bad. Only went things are changing state is when problems happen. Usually, personnel are suppose to be protected or far away when things are changing states. Something was overlooked or ignored wrt safety

 

[jimfromnsf]

Just because I didn't type it doesn't mean it didn't feel it. <br /><br />Expressing sympathy on a website forum is a hollow gesture.<br /><br />If you really mean to express sympathy, send an email, letter or card to Scaled.

 

[nyarlathotep]

<i>"We were doing a test we believe was safe. We don't know why it exploded. We just don't know," he said." <br /><br />Pretty damning words "we believe it was safe" <br /><br />There is no "believing", it is or it isn't </i><br /><br />Jim, the guy had just raced back to the office with no information, was being harrassed by the media for a quote, and was clearly in shock. So how about you lay off for a couple of days until we get an accident report.

 

[docm]

Nyarlathotep;<br /><br />Couldn't have said it better. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[frodo1008]

I really should NOT have to do this, but this is NOT free space. Please do NOT try to turn it into free space. I would like to think that we are indeed sophisticated adults here, and not the kindergarten types that I deal with over there all the time.<br /><br />This situation is going to be tough enough for Scaled Composites without our getting involved in flame wars over it. Expressing sympathy is fine, but getting disgusted with others on these boards that have other opinions isn't.<br /><br />If the eventual promise of humanity in space eventually becomes even a fraction of what it can be then ALL the brave people (and a brave person is one that KNOWS their is great danger, and STILL does his or her jobs) that have died in the greatest adventure in mankind's history will NOT have died in vain. And that is about all any of us can ever hope for in this life!<br /><br />So we bind up the wounds and pain of those that are left, and move on forward! <br /><br />NASA has had to do it, now it is the turn of Scaled Composites and alt.space. <br /><br />Move forward, and move on, or don't move at all and eventually move backwards. It is that simple!<br /><br />I know this as I have actually been there. I worked with NTO4, MMH, UDMH, and even IRFNA, all the most dangerous rocket fuel and oxidizers there are. You do the best you possibly can to be safe and hope like the devil that your fellow employees are doing the same! Of course, back when I was doing this, it was being a part of the greatest thing of the last century! The wonderful part of it was that even though I was very young at the time I KNEW this!<br /><br />So stop the bickering, and let us (and Rutan and Company) move on!<br /><br /> <br /><br />

 

[frodo1008]

I know this is speculation, but I hope this does not scare off<br />(as I personally think that it will be a good thing for Scaled Composites) Northrup Grumann from buying more stock in Scaled Composites. <br /><br />I do agree that it would be nice to see some kind of restraint from the media here, but unfortunately I don't really expect it to happen! Oh well....

 

[henryhallam]

I thought NG had already bought 100% of Scaled?

 

[gunsandrockets]

<Hubris caught up with Mr. Rutan. Maybe now he will tone down his criticism of NASA and the USAF.><br /><br />There is a time and place for such comments, and now is not that time. Try some discretion if you hope to earn respect. <br /><br /><Rutan criticizes NASA for losing astronauts, why should he be above recieving it for his faults. /><br /><br />Have the decency, at the least, to wait until the bodies are cold.

 

[thereiwas]

One can make points without expressing such arrogance, of which NASA has *way* too much.

 

[jimfromnsf]

Just pointing out that Rutan has the same arrogance

 

[jimfromnsf]

gnr,<br /><br />Why aren't you squealing to the moderators about the Ad Hominem attack Nyarlathotep did? You seem to do that for everybody else.

 

[JonClarke]

I am responding to Jim's post because it is the most recent. But what I say applies to everyone.<br /><br />[Moderator hat on]<br /><br />OK folks, let's stop it right here. A tragedy like this is not an occasion for personal sniping and point scoring. If you have information or insight, share it. If there are lessons that should be learned, discuss them. But any more name calling by anyone of anyone in this discussion and I will lock this thread. <br /><br />[Moderator hat off]<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

"http://www.bakersfield.com/102/story/198908.html"<br /><br />"Unlike rocket fuel, this material is not dangerous,†Rutan said.<br /><br />Rutan said the company does not move people away from this type of test like a rocket test because a propellant flowing “is believed to be completely safe.â€"<br /><br />There is evidence to the contrary to both quotes<br />

 

[spacefire]

Condolences to the families of the 3 workers killed and praying for speedy recovery of the injured.<br /><br />That said, the dream must not be abandoned. I agree this is a heavy blow to space tourism in general because space tourism, in order to really take off, needs to prove it is SAFER than government space efforts.<br /><br />That said,<br />I have to agree with anyone who says this could have been prevented. They were under completely controlled conditions in a test environment. Obviously there was a big flaw in Scaled safety standards. They need to get their act together and pull a number of successful flights before anyone buys a ticket for the program.<br /><br /><br />btw, one poster asked if NG had bought Scaled yet. I read on space.com's article on the explosion that the deal is still pending final approval.<br />I wonder if this incident will affect the purchase.<br /><br /><br />to JimfromNSF :<br />At least it wasn't (as far as we know) sabotage.<br /><br /><br />sorry, had to get that out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

Some more detail on NO2 from OSHA's guidelines:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">1. Conditions contributing to instability: Nitrous oxide can form an explosive mixture with air.<br /><br />2. Incompatibilities: Contact of nitrous oxide with aluminum, boron, hydrazine, lithium hydride, phenyllithium, phosphine, sodium, tungsten carbide, hydrogen, hydrogen sulfide, organic peroxides, ammonia, or carbon monoxide may cause violent reactions to occur.</font><br /><br />Hmm, aluminum.

 

[Testing]

Unconfirmed, unsubstantiated, second hand. That said, the explosion occured while filling the N2O tank in preparation for a test, pressure unknown. I believe my source. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[frodo1008]

I think that ALL of us can agree that whatever was being done it is self evident that it WAS NOT safe! <br /><br />Burt Rutan and his people need to find out what went wrong, and then see to it that it can't happen again! <br /><br />Other than caring for the injured, and the trauma to all the families involved, the above is the most important thing that needs to be done! I have confidence that not only Burt Rutan and his immediate employees, but even help from Northrup-Grumann and all affected governmental agencies will see to it that this is done quickly and efficiently. Then, and only then, can the program move forward!<br /><br />I realize that I am stating the obvious here, but sometimes on these boards someone needs to do just that!<br /><br />Hopefully, the media will not turn the whole process into some kind of a circus. Hopefully.....

 

[nyarlathotep]

<i>I have to agree with anyone who says this could have been prevented. They were under completely controlled conditions in a test environment. </i><br /><br />If Rutan is going around saying that a highly pressurised oxidiser which has a nasty tendency to explosively decompose is "completely safe" and he's not just putting on his usual PR spin but actually believes it, well, we really do have to wonder about his handling proceedures. I really hope it was simply a case of stress and his ego being on autopilot.<br /><br />If there are major procedural issues that caused this detonation, the OSHA investigation will hopefully find them.