eye wall hurricane at Saturn new or old?

[yevaud]

A Hurricane is a free-ranging system that is created by a combination of atmospheric disturbances, the appropriate water temperature, and rapidly rising, moisture laden air.<br /><br />This is an atmospheric circulatory system created by heating/cooling of the atmosphere at the pole (demonstrated by the image I posted earlier this week, showing the heat-transport system), and the circulation is caused by the rapid rotation at the poles. And it is fixed in one location.<br /><br />Similar in character, but as I said, a different dynamic.<br /><br />Besides which, the characteristics of the Saturnian atmospheric species (that's Physics-speak for a particular gas, "Species") are quite different than that of Earth. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

what forces are at work on Saturn that are not right away similar to Earth, not counting the fact that the earth has water oceans and land masses? or is this the main point? <br /><br />it would seem that fluid dynamics insofar as heating and cooling can work similarly across a range of materials.

 

[yevaud]

Well, understand that the atmospheric species present in the Saturnian atmosphere have different characteristics than Earth's. The amount of solar insolation that Saturn receives is much lower than Earth's. The system is operating at the pole, fixed as a coriolis storm, so to speak. The depth of the Saturnian atmosphere - and hence the pressure gradient top to bottom is extremely different than Earth. The gravity well of Saturn is intense compared to here. And the rotational velocity of Saturn is much faster than Earth.<br /><br />All very important differences. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

understand. <br /><br />that's pretty cool. <br /><br />at any rate, i wouldn't want that thing on Saturn to be on the earth. it looks as if the earth could fit inside the polar eye. and the storm, if you can call it that, appears far more violent and powerful than anything possible on the earth. <br /><br />let me ask you this. i'm assuming the temperatures of the gases near and on the surface of Saturn are at cryogenic levels, ie, well below freezing --like on Titan. so if there is this freezing surface condition meeting more intensely heated material a few miles down, it would seem to be a stark and sudden shift from hot to cold within the atmospheric layers in a relatively short distance. yes?

 

[yevaud]

Yeah, it's all relative. After all, what's important with a temperature gradient is the difference in temperature, not the temperature itself.<br /><br />Meaning, a temp of 35 degrees C and 20 Degrees C are not as great a differential as say -25 degrees C and -195 degrees C.<br /><br />There has to be a feriocious temperature gradient, top to bottom, in the Saturnian atmosphere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[bonzelite]

oh i get it. the temperatures do not need to go from hot to cold as we are commonly thinking. at least how i am commonly thinking. saturn is freezing. beyond freezing. <br /><br />therefore, per what you said, a volatile weather pattern can arise from say -25C to -195C even though both are beyond what we ever experience on earth as hot and cold. yet the differences in temperatures are from hot to cold relative to Saturn's environment. <br /><br />so it can go from merely freezing to super ultra-freezing and we have the hot and cold fronts that can create turbulent weather, ie, -25C is "warm."<br /><br />is the atmospheric pressure alone heating the lower atmosphere or is there something else heating it in addition? <br /><br />as well, once material enters this vortex, it is effectively swallowed into the lower atmosphere? and if it is, then how does the material make it's way back to the surface? on Earth, we would have condensation/rain, then evaporation back up to the upper atmosphere. is this happening at Saturn? <br /><br />

 

[CalliArcale]

Regarding recirculation, that's a good question. I doubt it can be answered without some serious thinking, number-crunching, and if possible, additional data, although I'm learning so much from Yevaud's responses in this thread that I don't know if my doubt is reasonable. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />The tricky thing about studying a planet like Saturn is that not only do you have to work hard to collect data, you have to work hard just to figure out what data to collect! It's so exotic that we don't have an easy frame of reference. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Precisely. It's unknown territory, and I'm trying to apply known physics to it.<br /><br />As to the heating of Saturn's atmosphere, the core regions will have returned to ferociously hot, due to sheer compression of the material. But the storm we're dealing with run's from relatively hot to relatively cold; I doubt this storm descends that far downwards. In fact, if it <i>did</i>, instead of seeing the evidence of heat being transported downwards, it'd be upwards instead.<br /><br />This thing is really fascinating to me. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

I never answered your original question, did I?<br /><br />This has probably been in existence for millions of years. After all, the conditions now are the conditions back then, if you see what I mean. I believe it would be quite easy for this sort of thing to develop, given the conditions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Back to the original question...has this storm formed recently or have we never seen it before due to instrumental or alignment limitations?<br />Since Saturn's axis is inclined 25 degrees to the ecliptic, we've seen the pole at least 3 or 4 times since telescopic observations started.<br />Certainly Cassini gives us the best views ever, but why is this new? <br /><br />I don't think this question has been addressed in the meandering discussion.<br /><br />I'll review to see if that impression is correct, then do some research.<br /><br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

LOLROTFLMAO!<br /><br />Yevaud, I got interrupted in writing my previous reply, which I started an hour ago. Just posted it.<br /><br />Eventually our instinct led us back to the original question, which was never discussed.<br /><br />Great? minds? think? alike? <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Perhaps. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /><br /><br />Calli mentioning how much she's gotten from this thread reminded me to answer the darned main question. So I did.<br /><br />As we say at work, "I guess you're on the same <whatever /> schedule as me." <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Personally, I think this wouldn't be hugely prominent as imaged from Earth. Just a suspicion, mind you. Butt contemplating the look angle, I think it just wouldn't neccessarily be seen. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[cadd50]

My first post here and I thought I would throw out a idea in reference to this. After reading this article today and viewing the images a thought crossed my mind. This is pure speculation as well in the form of a question. <br /><br />Could this be a very huge impact zone from a large asteroid or the like? Just a thought as I said, I do recall though when Shoemaker-Levi impacted Jupiter that it was a matter of months I believe that the impact sight was no longer visible. So I guess that could rule out this theory eh? <br />But then again it isn't clear or known how long this feature has been around. It is quite interesting to say the least however you look at it. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Welcome!<br /><br />It is not likely since the location at the pole would make other causes MUCH more so. It's not impossible, but the circulation around the pole of any body in the solar system is centered on the pole.<br />Here we have temperature and circulation effects that should create some kind of polar "thingy".<br /><br />Earth has such things as well, as do planets with atmospheres.<br /><br />So while an impact could contribute, it is not a likely cause.<br /><br />And you are right, I still have not been able to get good images from the past showing the pole. So no one knows at the moment how long this feature has been there.<br /><br />I'm still searching. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<i>oh i get it. the temperatures do not need to go from hot to cold as we are commonly thinking. at least how i am commonly thinking. saturn is freezing. beyond freezing.</i><br /><br />From your responses, you do indeed "get it." Weather, whether (heh!) Terrestrial or ExtraTerrestrial, is all driven by heat. That's <i>the</i> principal mechanism behind it all.<br /><br /><i>therefore, per what you said, a volatile weather pattern can arise from say -25C to -195C even though both are beyond what we ever experience on earth as hot and cold. yet the differences in temperatures are from hot to cold relative to Saturn's environment.</i><br /><br />That's a huge temperature differential, and heat - which of course means also the local atmosphere - must transport that heat from hot towards cold. That's what informs me that this polar storm doesn't descend that far - that the lower regions are "cold" with respect to the upper layers. This mean not having descended to the level where core heating via compression has again turned the atmosphere relatively hot."<br /><br /><i>so it can go from merely freezing to super ultra-freezing and we have the hot and cold fronts that can create turbulent weather, ie, -25C is "warm."</i><br /><br />Precisely correct. Heated atmosphere moves towards cooled atmosphere, trying to equalize the difference between the two. Waether occurs as a result.<br /><br /><i>is the atmospheric pressure alone heating the lower atmosphere or is there something else heating it in addition?</i><br /><br />Sources of heating are compression of the core regions, and a tiny amount of friction within the atmosphere itself, and solar insolation.<br /><br /><i>as well, once material enters this vortex, it is effectively swallowed into the lower atmosphere? and if it is, then how does the material make it's way back to the surface? on Earth, we would have condensation/rain, then evaporation back up to the upper atmosphere. is this happening at Saturn?</i><br /><br />It's a cir <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>