French Government Group Wants Europe To Join 2nd Space Race

[dreada5]

http://space.com/spacenews/businessmonday_070212.html<br /><br />Comments?

 

[rocketman5000]

I like the part about Nuclear powered satelittes, I hope they mean reactors and not RTG. <br /><br />If ESA and France would develop reactors it would ease the way for US efforts<br />

 

[holmec]

>First priority though, is for them to complete and fly existing programs, and to streamline management to keep future efforts on-time, and on-budget. <<br /><br />Not to worry about that! By the time Europe makes a decision for this plan.....most present missions will be long done. They take soooooo.....long to make a decision. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

I kind of wonder if they will ever put a manned craft on Ariane V. They are making room for Soyuz launchers at the Ariane launch site, why not just purchase Soyuz capsules? It would seem to be the most cost effective thing to do. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

"...why not just purchase Soyuz capsules? It would seem to be the most cost effective thing to do. "<br /><br />ESA passed on the chance to partner with Russia on the Kliper spacecraft. (though for all I know the Russians may have offered a very unfair deal)<br /><br />Now according to russianspaceweb the ESA and Russia are in talks for some sort of new joint project Soyuz spacecraft called the ACTS. The principal new feature of which seems to be an orbital module made by ESA.

 

[dreada5]

Will you have to remember Europe is very different from the US. There is a lot of bickering between memberstates with 99% of executive authority remaining with states leaders (who's first priority is their own nation and not the wider EU agenda); hence decisions take a long time.

 

[nyarlathotep]

ESA has been making powerpoints for decades. ACTS is just the latest in a long line, succeeding Kliper, CSTS, Hermes, and dozens of others. Europe has a lot of bold dreams, but when it comes time to cut into their socialised welfare budgets a little to foot the bill, everyone always steps back.<br /><br />I'm actually surprised that Italy coughed up the cash for Vega. Perhaps they see applications for solid motor research other than launching commsats.

 

[dreada5]

Again because of EU's memberstate structure, ESA has a difficult job in getting states to buy into an all encompassing program like ACTS (the counterpart to VSE) - I don't think USA, China or India have this problem. <br /><br />As such, despite what the French gov't would like, I have serious doubts that they'll be consensus to fully fund and move ahead with ACTS when the decision is made in 2008. <br /><br />Unless memberstates sit down and seriously rethink how the EU funds science and technology initiatives (eg. space exploration), the ESA will continue to have a very tough job in years to come when they try to compete with China, India etc in this emerging "mini" space race.

 

[dreada5]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Europe has a lot of bold dreams, but when it comes time to cut into their socialised welfare budgets a little to foot the bill, everyone always steps back. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I fear you're right. It's not that Europe can't compete with China and India. I think manned Arianes or using Soyuz at Korrou (sp?) is a real possibility, as is ACTS (the expertise exists) - but memberstates leaders don't believe their citizens have enough interest in space exploration to make those sacrifices.<br /><br />And thus I think it is a real possibility, with a higher probability day by day, that China, India and other emerging technology-driven nations will leave a less-focused, eco-friendly Europe behind on earth... wondering in a decade's time, what went wrong.

 

[themanwithoutapast]

NASA's budget is only that large because it was large during the Cold War, when the US needed to compete with the SU for the prestige manned space programs bring. Nowadays, the US, to a lesser extent, still fund a large manned program because of prestige and for other political reasons (jobs, indirect subsidies to military contractors).<br /><br />ESA was set up under a completely different premisis. It was created to offer European countries an independent unmanned access to space, that is for military sats and commcercial sats as well as scientific equipment. That premisis has not changed yet. The human spaceflight program is just an add-on which came to be out of the mostly French push for a prestigious project. Today, Europe is still not unified enough that a human spaceflight program could be used for enhancing "europewide pride". And as long as single nations will spend money both on their own separate space program and on projects within the ESA's framework, that will not change. <br /><br />The question is, does that matter? From a commercial standpoint, investments in high-tech technology such as space systems is a good thing. However, in a Europe dominated by a EU that spends more than 50 % of its meager budget on agriculture, there needs to be a fundamental change in policy beforehand. As long as that does not happen, ESA will remain what it is - an organization primarily dedicated to medium and small unmanned scientific missions and dedicated to provide an independent unmanned space access for commercial and governmental European sats.

 

[holmec]

>Will you have to remember Europe is very different from the US. There is a lot of bickering between memberstates with 99% of executive authority remaining with states leaders (who's first priority is their own nation and not the wider EU agenda); hence decisions take a long time.<<br /><br />Its always been that way with Europe even before the union. Remember the first successful meeting that agreed that Europe should unite was around 1960! It took decades to see it come to pass......<br /><br />So after the union instead of throwing rocks at each other (over truck deliveries) now they throw insults at one another in legislature......its kind of comical if you think about it.<br /><br />My point is that the operate this way not because of their government structure but rather because its a fundamental property of the European nations. Hence their structure. And if you want one thing to point at at why the US exists, then it would be because of the fussy bickering and power plays the European community does all the time.<br /><br />France has always been the dreamer, Germany the pragmatist, Britain the superiority complex, Spain just wanted to take a nap in the afternoon, Netherlands just couldn't care, Belgium kept to itself, Italy is still glorying in the past Roman Empire. Really, you couldn't have more of a motley crue. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[dreada5]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>However, in a Europe dominated by a EU that spends more than 50 % of its meager budget on agriculture, there needs to be a fundamental change in policy beforehand. As long as that does not happen, ESA will remain what it is - an organization primarily dedicated to medium and small unmanned scientific missions and dedicated to provide an independent unmanned space access for commercial and governmental European sats. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Agreed. I think such a fundamental change of policy could happen or maybe unilateral action by individual memberstates (eg. France to start)... if they can get away with it.

 

[dreada5]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>And if you want one thing to point at at why the US exists, then it would be because of the fussy bickering and power plays the European community does all the time. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />No, the US exists because a couple religious/adventurous europeans felt the grass was greener on the other side! ...everything else followed later.

 

[alpha_centauri]

It's nice that they are actually facing up to reality, though tbh i would much prefer all this coming from one of the previously less involved nations, then it would really be a sign of change.<br /><br />The problem is that they're thinking about it in entirely the wrong way.<br /><br />Sanctions on using non-European Launchers? How about making competitive launch systems? Giving the Ariane a restart ability like just about everyone else has including the Indians would be a good start.....And a Manned Ariane 5? that's a quick fix solution it won't allow for expanded missions that may be required in the future.<br /><br />

 

[themanwithoutapast]

"Sanctions on using non-European Launchers? How about making competitive launch systems? Giving the Ariane a restart ability like just about everyone else has including the Indians would be a good start.....And a Manned Ariane 5? that's a quick fix solution it won't allow for expanded missions that may be required in the future. "<br /><br />Ariane 5 is the clear market leader in the comsat business. ILS and SeaLaunch are far behind it. And they don't just have European customers, the main customers are American and Asian companies. Besides the "European launchers first" policy is geared towards governmental spacecraft launches, that is military and science missions. The US military would never consider to launch their sats on a non-US launch system.<br /><br />Besides the "European launchers first" initiative is mainly geared to secure business for Soyuz and Vega once they are launched from Kourou. Ariane 5 has currently 48 payloads in its manifest and is basically booked out for the next 2 years. There is no comparable launcher with such a large customer demand in the world right now.

 

[holmec]

>No, the US exists because a couple religious/adventurous europeans felt the grass was greener on the other side! ...everything else followed later.<<br /><br />I understand that, but I'm talking about a more fundamental reason that caused "the grass to be greener on the other side!" because there was no religious or political quarrel, and its the quarreling I mentioned.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[ckikilwai]

A French goverment group? which?<br />I find it strange their is no source mentioned...<br /><br />And a manned space ship on the ariane 5?<br />Didn't this group heard about acts/csts?<br />The only interesting proposal I read is the one about giving assistance to space tourism companies.<br />

 

[j05h]

Funny how the European govt agency is "studying" space tourism while American businesses actually fly space tourists. "SpaceShipOne, Government Zero", so to speak.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[dreada5]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Funny how the European govt agency is "studying" space tourism while American businesses actually fly space tourists. "SpaceShipOne, Government Zero", so to speak. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Not really... how many ready/capable space entrepreneurs are in europe [compared] to how many are in the states?<br /><br /><b>ESA</b> is studying space tourism because that's all it can do... study and encourage! NASA on the other hand doesn't need to because the general US public are making it happen themselves eg. X-Prize. I may be generalising here, but IMO european citizens are not as interested in space as are americans.<br />

 

[mithridates]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Branson<br /><br />He's European. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[dreada5]

Yeah, Branson is one seriously cool brit!<br /><br />but i digress

 

[dreada5]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>A French goverment group? which? <br />I find it strange their is no source mentioned... <br /><br />And a manned space ship on the ariane 5? <br />Didn't this group heard about acts/csts?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />French Parliamentary Office for the Evaluation of Scientific and Technological Choices<br /><br />http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/documents/index-oecst-gb.asp<br /><br />IMO this group is trying to ensure that Europe realises how important getting a green-light on ACTS/CSTS is... I hate to say it, but I have my doubts.

 

[SpaceKiwi]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>He's European.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Yes, and you could hardly characterize the Scaled Composites folks as 'tourists'. Paid professionals of a tech development company, who seem to be working towards the European cause just at the minute. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><font size="2" color="#ff0000">Who is this superhero?  Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!</font></em></p><p><em><font size="2">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></em></p><p><font size="5">Bring Back The Black!</font></p> </div>

 

[j05h]

<i>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Branson<br /> />He's European.</i><br /><br />No, he's British. There's a difference, some might insist a big difference. And Sir Richard is paying for development of an American vehicle to enable his goals.<br /><br />I agree with the post that says that ESA/Europe should get onboard the ACTS bandwagon, but wouldn't hold my breath. The beauty of the current situation is that the market is working. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Bad news: British = European. I know the logic behind what you're saying: first you set up a straw man about European people, then claim that anything apart from the idea you've created is something else, an exception. Moving the goalposts, as it were.<br />Also, you stated that "American businesses actually fly space tourists" when the company is located in London. Even if your odd logic on the difference between British people and Europeans were allowed to pass, the company's still not an American one. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>