French Government Group Wants Europe To Join 2nd Space Race

[j05h]

I'm just pushing your buttons, but ESA and France have a long history of studies that go nowhere.<br /><br />For space to be successful, international business provides the only model that can be sustainable. The American business that flies space tourists is Space Adventures not Virgin Galactic. Virgin/Scaled are still in a development phase.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[nyarlathotep]

<font color="yellow">Bad news: British = European.</font><br /><br />In all ways that count, not after september 1992.

 

[tohaki]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Again because of EU's memberstate structure, ESA has a difficult job in getting states to buy into an all encompassing program like ACTS (the counterpart to VSE) - I don't think USA, China or India have this problem.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>ESA is not an EU agency.

 

[j05h]

<i>> Ha, nice try! Space Adventures don't fly anyone to space, they're just an agent for the Russian Government, who do fly tourists into space.</i><br /><br />Interesting way to describe Space Adventures and Energias (not Roskosmos) relationship. If you'll re-read my post, I said that INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS was the best model to follow for developing space, and holy smokes, Space Adventures and Energia together form a successful international business venture. Imagine that. Other examples in space include SeaLaunch, ILS and the former MirCorp (which actually flew the first "private" cosmonauts in 1999). <br /><br />The Russian government has yes/no authority over Energia but is not the entity that flies space tourists. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[dreada5]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>ESA is a completely seperate organisation to the EU. Not all EU members are members of ESA, and not all members of ESA are EU members. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Of course. <br /><br />My point is ESA seeks to rival agencies like NASA, CNSA by getting more financial commitment from European nations, but it is difficult because of how Europe is organised.

 

[dreada5]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>ESA is not an EU agency. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I don't think I said it was.

 

[tohaki]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I don't think I said it was.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>If you say so I accept that your post was perhaps only poorly worded. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>"...why not just purchase Soyuz capsules? It would seem to be the most cost effective thing to do. " <br /><br />ESA passed on the chance to partner with Russia on the Kliper spacecraft. (though for all I know the Russians may have offered a very unfair deal)</i><br /><br />And now maybe a different deal is in the offing?<br /><br /><i>CHANGING TRAJECTORY</i><br />French Firm Vaults Ahead In Civilian Rocket Market<br /><br />Arianespace Cut Costs<br />To Beat U.S. Rivals;<br />Trying to Sign NASA<br /><br />By Andy Pasztor (Wall Street Journal)<br /><br />June 25, 2007; Page A1<br /><br />KOUROU, French Guiana -- <i>Using an isolated launch site in this remote French outpost, a suburban Paris-based rocket operator has managed to gain new international clout -- along with some unlikely U.S. fans.<br /><br />When the company, closely held Arianespace, blasted a pair of commercial satellites into orbit last month, the list of dignitaries watching the launch included Michael Griffin, administrator of the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration.<br /><br />Mr. Griffin had good reason to check out the company's massive Ariane 5 rocket. NASA plans to retire its aging space-shuttle fleet in 2010. But if the agency stumbles in developing its own replacement, it could end up using the European rocket to ferry cargo, and perhaps U.S. crews, to the International Space Station.<br /><br />Following the Ariane 5's liftoff from this equatorial rain forest -- creating a bone-jarring rumble and massive plume that illuminated treetops like a silver canopy -- Mr. Griffin declared the launch system "probably the best in the world, very smooth and very impressive."<br /><br />The fact that NASA is even mulling a French rocket provider as a possible backup is a telling sign that the balance of power in civilian space has shifted, with the new leader no longer an American company. Arianespace -- cr</i>

 

[frunko1]

I thought they already tried man space flight..<br />http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2007/02/stories/03/1.html<br />http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2007/02/stories/03/images/5/large.jpg<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN3JjUUdjWU<br /><br />Didn't quite go as planned but a good start. <br /><br />Just wanted to add some humor. <br /><br />Have a good day.

 

[ckikilwai]

That was soo cool frunko1!<br />thanks for the link <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[ckikilwai]

I thought he just went see the launch because the Ariane 5 will launch the ATV in the near future.<br /><br />"But if the agency stumbles in developing its own replacement, it could end up using the European rocket to ferry cargo, and perhaps U.S. crews, to the International Space Station."<br /><br />They will rely on the Progress and the ATV after the shuttle is retired, and using the Ariane 5 to launch a crew to the ISS? What's wrong with the Soyuz?<br />I have the impression that Andy Pasztor isn't a big space expert <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br />

 

[serak_the_preparer]

Top Gear's effort was a lot of fun; thanks for the link! (Which led me to this, by the way: BBC - Top Gear - Production notes - Reliant Robin - Space Shuttle.) Especially liked the use of their Miranda class Reliant (providing an excuse to use a favorite quote)...<br /><br /><i>“KHAAAAN!!!â€</i>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>They will rely on the Progress and the ATV after the shuttle is retired, and using the Ariane 5 to launch a crew to the ISS? What's wrong with the Soyuz?</i><br /><br />Agreed that the 'perhaps U.S. crews' may be a bit of a stretch. However, did you read farther into the article?<br /><br /><i>When the Russian rockets are ready, Arianespace plans to let its managers -- rather than its customers -- decide which rocket to use for each payload that is shot into orbit....<br /><br />Mr. Le Gall likes to cite the airline analogy. "When you buy a ticket on an airline, you don't worry about whether a Boeing or Airbus aircraft will be used," he says....</i><br /><br />Sounds like Arianespace might find itself launching NASA payloads on Soyuz vehicles.

 

[jimfromnsf]

"Sounds like Arianespace might find itself launching NASA payloads on Soyuz vehicles."<br /><br />Not true. There is no need for this aside from Progress and Soyuz spacecraft and they are not launched by Arianespace.<br /><br />The point of the article is manned spacecraft. And Griffin would be talking out of both sides of his mouth, if Ariane is ok for crew and Atlas and Delta are not

 

[j05h]

<i>> The point of the article is manned spacecraft. And Griffin would be talking out of both sides of his mouth, if Ariane is ok for crew and Atlas and Delta are not</i><br /><br />I think Serak is referring to flying Soyuz capsules on Soyuz (or Soyuz 2) out of Kourou. People involved in the project have talked about this possibility, too. Ariane the company is involved, but AFAIK the Ariane 5 rocket is not. Ariane 5 was designed with human launch in mind, anyhow.<br /><br />Now that y'all brought it up, the Ariane 5 ES could easily support the CEV Block 1. At 21mT to LEO it is just shy of the proposed 22.9mT for the station-bound CEV.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[acid_frost]

Am i mistaken or at one time didnt the French and the Russian Federation working on some type of a joint mini shuttle of sorts?

 

[ckikilwai]

"However, did you read farther into the article? "<br />No I can't, you have to be subscribed to wall street journal.<br /><br />"Sounds like Arianespace might find itself launching NASA payloads on Soyuz vehicles."<br />Well NASA could do that, but they could still use Delta II rockets to launch it's scientific probes.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>"However, did you read farther into the article? " <br />No I can't, you have to be subscribed to wall street journal.</i><br /><br />Sorry about that, Ckikilwai. I'd hoped that Google link would make the article available for a longer period, and didn't feel it appropriate to copy the whole thing into a post here.<br /><br />But, yes, you're right that there's nothing wrong with the Soyuz and I never meant to imply there was. Thanks to JO5H for writing: 'I think Serak is referring to flying Soyuz capsules on Soyuz (or Soyuz 2) out of Kourou. People involved in the project have talked about this possibility, too. Ariane the company is involved....' The article mentions that in 2008 facilities for launching Soyuz 2 (little blurb on this at RussianSpaceWeb here; see also ESA - Launch vehicles - Soyuz) are hoped to be ready for Arianespace customers.<br /><br /><i>"Sounds like Arianespace might find itself launching NASA payloads on Soyuz vehicles." <br />Well NASA could do that, but they could still use Delta II rockets to launch it's scientific probes.</i><br /><br />The article's author seems to suggest the possibility that Griffin might be shopping around. If he is, then what's he looking for? Cost-savings? Readiness and range of services? A little more from Mr. Pasztor:<br /><br /><i>Once all the work is finished in 2008, proponents envision Europe's Spaceport operating more like an out-of-the-way airport. Its modern control centers and hulking assembly buildings will conduct a mission every few weeks. Competitors plan to fly only every few months....<br /><br />Kourou will have unmatched flexibility to handle all sizes and types of payloads. Its location virtually on the equator means it can handle loads up to 30% greater than those of other launch sites....</i><br /><br />Jimfromnsf writes that

 

[christine16]

so Europe is TOP

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>Am i mistaken or at one time didnt the French and the Russian Federation working on some type of a joint mini shuttle of sorts?</i><br /><br />Sounds like you're talking about Russia's on-again-off-again next generation spacecraft, Kliper. There are a few of threads about it on this forum:<br /><br />why Kliper isn't going to make it. Russian overstatements!<br /><br />Klipper update thread (part 1)<br /><br />New pictures of Kliper<br /><br />Russian Clipper/Kliper mini-shuttle gets European support<br /><br />Kliper killing capsule may still fall foul of ESA states...<br /><br />Russian Kliper Space Plane Update<br /><br />By,By Klipper and welcome capsule

 

[wubblie]

I think that there is another possibility as well. The European division of its space program into commercial/exploration sides has a interesting advantage in that, because the launchers are commercially successful, they are always available to the space agency when it needs them. Because of this, if Ariane were to develop a heavier launch Ariane 6, they would keep it (in contrast to Saturn V and the Soviet heavy lift, which were not commercial programs). Now, ESA/ Ariane were talking about an Ariane 6 in the past, but at that time Ariane V was not a commercial success. Now it is, they just put in an order for 35 more. If Ariane decides that it would be more efficient to put more than 2 satellites in orbit at a time, we could well see a larger rocket. The designers at Ariane need something to do now anyway. Couple this with the fact that ESA would buy some heavy lift capacity if available, and perhaps they are kind of on the fence. Now, if NASA is hinting that they would also use the new rocket, Ariane would go for it. Maybe that is why NASA admin is in Guyana now. They want an insurance policy in case something happens to the Aires (lesson learned from STS) and are letting this play into Ariane's calculations.

 

[jimfromnsf]

NASA is not hinting that they will use Ariane. There are other US options available. NASA doesn't need Ariane. Griffin is touring in Guyana because JWST is going to launch on Ariane

 

[wubblie]

JWST is not scheduled to launch until 2013 at the earliest. I doubt that Griffin would show up in Guyana 6 years early to talk about that. Maybe the ATV, but the ATV itself is still in Europe, and there are a lot of launches before that. The timing just strikes me as odd- ESA is talking about wanting an uprated launcher for manned missions, Ariane V turned to corner to success, which was a prerequesite for Ariane 6, and Griffin was in Guyana for the last launch. I would be surprised if the topic of an uprated Ariane did not come up. We needed Soyuz when the shuttle was grounded... .

 

[docm]

<font color="yellow">We needed Soyuz when the shuttle was grounded...</font><br /><br />No, we needed an operational redundant capability like the HL-20....but intramural politics & funding wars got in the way of that. Let's hope the various NewSpace alternatives fix that error in judgment. <br /><br />IMO the more redundancy the US has access to the better, so lets wish Dragon, DC etc. well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>