General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics

[Atlan0001]

Most still do not get -- understand -- the two state energy-less "time crystal" state recently modelled by Google. Nothing better demonstrates the beginning state / end state of the time-scape better than this binary "and/or" state. It is both here and there state, and, here or there state.... both past and future state, and, past or future state. No it is not cyclic ("and" state), and, yes it is cyclic ("or" state). How else an energy-less state than both states at once in the "and", the "or", the "and/or", binary state?

Only the finally realized existence of the "and" state realizes the whole -- all at once a constant of 'binary' state -- to be forever an energy-less state: Universe (one world state (the finite-singular observable universe state... an energy state)) and/or Multiverse (many worlds state (the infinite-multiple unobserved and unobservable universes state.... altogether a reductionist -- overall an energy zeroed out -- state)).

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

VPE,

Yes, I think that we are getting deep into the area of 'creational philosophy' here.

Cat

Yep that E comes down to some reason.
All guesswork as to how it started.
If started even exists

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Most still do not get -- understand -- the two state energy-less "time crystal" state recently modelled by Google. Nothing better demonstrates the beginning state / end state of the time-scape better than this binary "and/or" state. It is both here and there state, and, here or there state.... both past and future state, and, past or future state. No it is not cyclic ("and" state), and, yes it is cyclic ("or" state). How else an energy-less state than both states at once in the "and", the "or", the "and/or", binary state?

Only the finally realized existence of the "and" state realizes the whole -- all at once a constant of 'binary' state -- to be forever an energy-less state: Universe (one world state (the finite-singular observable universe state... an energy state)) and/or Multiverse (many worlds state (the infinite-multiple unobserved and unobservable universes state.... altogether a reductionist -- overall an energy zeroed out -- state)).

A property of a void, nothings - potential energy, instability of nothing.
All good reason to start quantum fluctuations energy balance act that creates the rest.

Everything might just have no good reason other than some weird property of nothing.

JMO

 

[Harry Costas]

People will believe in what they want.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

People will believe in what they want.

The real question of the universe is origin of E.
Make a plausible start for it and reason for it to stop being created and it's probably what happened.

JMO

 

[Harry Costas]

If that works for you then that’s OK.

 

[binbots]

Getting back to the intent of this thread it just seems to me that wave particle duality is obvious when you see that time emerges from every point in space. Because causality has a speed limit every point in space sees itself as the closest to the present moment. When we look out into the universe, we see the past which is made of particles. When we try to look at smaller and smaller sizes and distances, we are actually looking closer and closer to the present moment. The wave property of particles appears when we start looking into the future of that particle. It is a probability wave because the future is probabilistic. Wave function collapse happens when we bring a particle into the present/past. GR is predictable because it takes place in the predictable past and the probabilistic wave properties of particles takes place in the probabilistic future.

 

[Atlan0001]

A traveler travels away from the Earth and the observer pinned to Earth.

The observer on Earth (t=0) has particularly good optics and observes the traveler (ship, traveler, and ship's clock, loaded down with particles) to be .5 light year from Earth. The traveler (ship, traveler, and ship's clock, loaded down with particles) is in fact, now (t=0) .75 x 6 trillion miles from Earth.... and unobserved by the observer. Traveler, traveler's clock, and observer and observer's clock, as far as the unobservable universe is concerned, are quantum entangled in the same "now". As far as the observer is concerned, he, his clock, and his observed traveler and his clock in the observable universe -- per the speed of light -- are the only two existent and entangled with vastnesses of particles.

The observer on Earth (t=0), again with fantastic optics, observes the traveler (ship, traveler, and ship's clock, all loaded down with particles) to be 1 light year from Earth. The traveler (loaded down with particles) is in fact now (t=0) 1.5 x 6 trillion miles from Earth.... and unobserved by the observer. Traveler...., and observer...., as far as the unobservable universe is concerned, are quantum entangled in the same "now". As far as the observer is concerned, he and the observed traveler in the observable universe are the only two existent, entangled with vastnesses of particles.

The observer on Earth (t=0) (loaded down with particles), able to do fantastic things with light, observes the traveler (thus observably presumed to be loaded down with particles) to be 2 light years from Earth. The traveler (including all his particles and probabilities) is in fact now (t=0) 3 x 6 trillion miles from Earth.... unobserved by the observer.

The observer is observing the observable traveler in the observable universe, his ship, and his ship's clock time, (including all the constituent particles of the same) to be slowing down in time -- gradually accelerating in slowing down.... thus that particular relative traveler under close observation, that particular traveler's clock and time under equally close observation, and all the supposed constituent particles of the same under close observation, in effect, are in the same universe, even in exactly the same room, at exactly the same time -- so close as if quantumly entangled -- with him the observer. And neither of them, including with them the Earth, has gone nova because of it. That particular traveler (traveler, ship, ship's clock, time and all) has become small enough to fit into the cells of his eyeball.... even to fit into one cell only of his eyeball.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Getting back to the intent of this thread it just seems to me that wave particle duality is obvious when you see that time emerges from every point in space. Because causality has a speed limit every point in space sees itself as the closest to the present moment. When we look out into the universe, we see the past which is made of particles. When we try to look at smaller and smaller sizes and distances, we are actually looking closer and closer to the present moment. The wave property of particles appears when we start looking into the future of that particle. It is a probability wave because the future is probabilistic. Wave function collapse happens when we bring a particle into the present/past. GR is predictable because it takes place in the predictable past and the probabilistic wave properties of particles takes place in the probabilistic future.

Duality could be as simple as medium of transport.
If indeed we have smallest things in the universe then between them (nothing).
Rules for traveling through something or nothing could be that duality.

I enjoy simple answers to what seems complex problems.
I might be wrong but simple never is

 

[Harry Costas]

To say they our Sun has long jeopardy because of Hydrogen slow burning.
Maybe OK to an extent.
We need to further understand the Sun by not limiting our understanding.
The Core comprises of two parts
The outer core where atoms photo disintegrates into Protons and Neutrons.
The inner core being a condensate will confine Neutrons and Prontons (will change Neutrons buy gaining an electron).
This is part of the journey.
If the mass of the core increases to a critical mass Neutrons will break up into Quarks of various complexities and form an inner inner core,

This is cutting edge information, today you can research to your hearts content.

If it was just Hydrogen you would be talking about a few million years.
The core is important to holding the solar envelope in place.
If the core loses mass than the solar envelope expands and expands and expands and could reach beyond Earths orbit.
The core has over 95 % of the solar system mass.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Getting back to the intent of this thread it just seems to me that wave particle duality is obvious when you see that time emerges from every point in space. Because causality has a speed limit every point in space sees itself as the closest to the present moment. When we look out into the universe, we see the past which is made of particles. When we try to look at smaller and smaller sizes and distances, we are actually looking closer and closer to the present moment. The wave property of particles appears when we start looking into the future of that particle. It is a probability wave because the future is probabilistic. Wave function collapse happens when we bring a particle into the present/past. GR is predictable because it takes place in the predictable past and the probabilistic wave properties of particles takes place in the probabilistic future.

When we try to look at smaller and smaller sizes and distances, we are actually looking closer and closer to the present moment.

Yes, closer and closer but never quite there! so no such thing a the present.

It is a probability wave because the future is probabilistic.

I disagree, due to cause-and effect the future is already exactly determined by the exact current changing conditions.

and the probabilistic wave properties of particles takes place in the probabilistic future.

I don't think anything takes place in the future, the future doesn't exist yet, it's not happened yet.

Getting back to the intent of this thread it just seems to me that wave particle duality is obvious when you see that time emerges from every point in space. Because causality has a speed limit every point in space sees itself as the closest to the present moment.

Needs a bit more explanation, for me at least.

Keep it coming, I like thinking about things like this

 

[Atlan0001]

If there is such a thing as quantum entanglement, then the time of the quantum entanglement (all of the quantum entanglement) of the Universe (U) is "now" (t=0). A saying from history was ,"All roads lead to Rome." Well all of an infinity of pasts (-), via all of an infinity of futures (+), lead to a hub universality (a quantum entangled universality) of "now" (t=0). An overall timelessness of countless paralleling times (countless paralleling past(-)-futures(+)) in countless paralleling -- unobservable from here.... everywhere here is -- universes.

 

[binbots]

Yes, closer and closer but never quite there! so no such thing a the present. I disagree, due to cause-and effect the future is already exactly determined by the exact current changing conditions. I don't think anything takes place in the future, the future doesn't exist yet, it's not happened yet.Needs a bit more explanation, for me at least.

Keep it coming, I like thinking about things like this

Time emerges from every point is space. Every point in space has its own timeline. The further away two objects are in space the further away in time they are because the fastest way to transport information is the speed of light. Therefore when we measure ever smaller distances the time difference approaches zero. When the distance gets too small the times interfere with each other causing an interference pattern.

 

[David-J-Franks]

If there is such a thing as quantum entanglement, then the time of the quantum entanglement (all of the quantum entanglement) of the Universe (U) is "now" (t=0). A saying from history was ,"All roads lead to Rome." Well all of an infinity of pasts (-), via all of an infinity of futures (+), lead to a hub universality (a quantum entangled universality) of "now" (t=0). An overall timelessness of countless paralleling times (countless paralleling past(-)-futures(+)) in countless paralleling -- unobservable from here.... everywhere here is -- universes.

Entanglement does exist, as far as I know, it is now widely used in experiments and taken for granted.

What you can be sure of is that nothing is instantaneous. Everything that happens needs a cause. 2 related things happening together would require the cause to travel at infinite speed, which is impossible. For something to cause an effect at distance needs some kind of mechanism, it's not done by magic. It's just that no one has discovered it yet. There's the next Nobel Prize waiting!

Well all of an infinity of pasts (-), via all of an infinity of futures (+), lead to a hub universality (a quantum entangled universality) of "now" (t=0).

I don't see an infinity of pasts or futures, I don't think they exist. To me, the past was just a different arrangement of the moving things you see around you now, and the future will be just a further rearrangement that doesn't exist yet.

As for 'now' there's only an instantaneous present and that doesn't exist either because as soon as you say now it's gone!

So, IMO, no such thing as past, present or future. The only place they exist is as concepts in your mind. You're watching a delayed mental video of reality which gives you an illusion that time exists.

If I'm right about entanglement then there's no such thing as "a hub universality (a quantum entangled universality) of "now" (t=0)."

I think Einstein might be right here;

"According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense that two distinct events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space."

So 'now' depends on where you are and how fast you are moving.

 

[binbots]

Entanglement does exist, as far as I know, it is now widely used in experiments and taken for granted.

What you can be sure of is that nothing is instantaneous. Everything that happens needs a cause. 2 related things happening together would require the cause to travel at infinite speed, which is impossible. For something to cause an effect at distance needs some kind of mechanism, it's not done by magic. It's just that no one has discovered it yet. There's the next Nobel Prize waiting!

I don't see an infinity of pasts or futures, I don't think they exist. To me, the past was just a different arrangement of the moving things you see around you now, and the future will be just a further rearrangement that doesn't exist yet.

As for 'now' there's only an instantaneous present and that doesn't exist either because as soon as you say now it's gone!

So, IMO, no such thing as past, present or future. The only place they exist is as concepts in your mind. You're watching a delayed mental video of reality which gives you an illusion that time exists.

If I'm right about entanglement then there's no such thing as "a hub universality (a quantum entangled universality) of "now" (t=0)."

I think Einstein might be right here;

"According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense that two distinct events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space."

So 'now' depends on where you are and how fast you are moving.

So no two events can have the same now or place. That is why we get a probability wave or inference pattern.

 

[David-J-Franks]

Time emerges from every point is space. Every point in space has its own timeline. The further away two objects are in space the further away in time they are because the fastest way to transport information is the speed of light. Therefore when we measure ever smaller distances the time difference approaches zero. When the distance gets too small the times interfere with each other causing an interference pattern.

When the distance gets too small the times interfere with each other causing an interference pattern.

That's where you lose me. My understanding of an interference pattern is when the peaks and troughs of merging waves reinforce and cancel each other. I've not heard it expressed in terms of time before.

 

[David-J-Franks]

So no two events can have the same now or place. That is why we get a probability wave or inference pattern.

Again my knowledge is limited here. I do understand that quantum mechanics describes particles as having a wave function. My own personal interpretation of this is that a particle does have its exact properties but we just can't know them, because the measurement of them disturbs them and causes uncertainties. So, I think the wave function is just our way of saying what we will probably find, and not that the actual particle exists as a probability of some sort or another.

I'm also wondering whether you're confusing the quantum wave function with interference patterns. They're 2 different things (I think), so I'm still not sure what you're getting at. Maybe the wave functions themselves cause interference patterns with other particles?

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Yes, closer and closer but never quite there! so no such thing a the present. I disagree, due to cause-and effect the future is already exactly determined by the exact current changing conditions. I don't think anything takes place in the future, the future doesn't exist yet, it's not happened yet.Needs a bit more explanation, for me at least.

Keep it coming, I like thinking about things like this

When we think of time as just activity then yesterday doesn't really exist nor tomorrow.
Just the activity of right now then it doesn't exist right after now.

I have my doubts time exists at all other than a way to measure distance or activity i think time is a non existent item and just a concept.

JMO

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Again my knowledge is limited here. I do understand that quantum mechanics describes particles as having a wave function. My own personal interpretation of this is that a particle does have its exact properties but we just can't know them, because the measurement of them disturbs them and causes uncertainties. So, I think the wave function is just our way of saying what we will probably find, and not that the actual particle exists as a probability of some sort or another.

I'm also wondering whether you're confusing the quantum wave function with interference patterns. They're 2 different things (I think), so I'm still not sure what you're getting at. Maybe the wave functions themselves cause interference patterns with other particles?

Dave what do you think of the idea of medium of transpher?
Traveling through nothing or something will have basic law differences.
Duality the effect of traveling through both and a result for each.
Works well for the split slot experiment if wave and particle exist and travel in different mediums.
Explaining the split slot any other way makes for weird and wonderful physics/quantum mechanics.
Small i have a feeling can only be so small then nothing between so the medium for 2 realities probably exists.

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

Time emerges from every point is space. Every point in space has its own timeline. The further away two objects are in space the further away in time they are because the fastest way to transport information is the speed of light. Therefore when we measure ever smaller distances the time difference approaches zero. When the distance gets too small the times interfere with each other causing an interference pattern.

Time though could be just a concept.
Nature might have no such a beast as time but more the reaction of gravity or the reaction of movement.
No real proof that nature has a clock so IMO it probably doesn't

 

[voidpotentialenergy]

If there is such a thing as quantum entanglement, then the time of the quantum entanglement (all of the quantum entanglement) of the Universe (U) is "now" (t=0). A saying from history was ,"All roads lead to Rome." Well all of an infinity of pasts (-), via all of an infinity of futures (+), lead to a hub universality (a quantum entangled universality) of "now" (t=0). An overall timelessness of countless paralleling times (countless paralleling past(-)-futures(+)) in countless paralleling -- unobservable from here.... everywhere here is -- universes.

I have a feeling quantum entanglement is actually gravitational entanglement.
Spooky action no more than 2 gravity entangled atoms communicating at instant speed through the medium of (nothing) takes no time to travel through nothing.

 

[KC Strom]

I have a feeling quantum entanglement is actually gravitational entanglement.
Spooky action no more than 2 gravity entangled atoms communicating at instant speed through the medium of (nothing) takes no time to travel through nothing.

A question. Does such entanglement require communication to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light?

 

[David-J-Franks]

Dave what do you think of the idea of medium of transpher?
Traveling through nothing or something will have basic law differences.
Duality the effect of traveling through both and a result for each.
Works well for the split slot experiment if wave and particle exist and travel in different mediums.
Explaining the split slot any other way makes for weird and wonderful physics/quantum mechanics.
Small i have a feeling can only be so small then nothing between so the medium for 2 realities probably exists.

Yes, I think the medium through which most things travel will affect their speed, including light. No one knows enough about what space is at the moment, so it's difficult to say if you can get small enough down to nothing in between things. If you can it would be near the Planck scale and the size of elementary particles are many orders of magnitude bigger, 10^10, 20 or 30? I don't think a Planck length will affect any slit experiments with photons or atoms. Who am I to say.

There are several theories that try to quantize space, the main one being Loop Quantum Gravity. What's in the middle of a loop?

IMO there's no such thing as nothing anywhere on any scale, I think space is completely, continuously and smoothly filled with all those various quantum fields and gravity. I think whatever exists would quickly fill up any void.

 

[David-J-Franks]

I have a feeling quantum entanglement is actually gravitational entanglement.
Spooky action no more than 2 gravity entangled atoms communicating at instant speed through the medium of (nothing) takes no time to travel through nothing.

I have a feeling quantum entanglement is actually gravitational entanglement.
Spooky action no more than 2 gravity entangled atoms communicating at instant speed through the medium of (nothing) takes no time to travel through nothing.

IMO it would take time to travel through a void. The distance between objects can be defined as how many objects you could fit in between. The distance remains whether there's a void or not between them. A void automatically rules out the transmission of any kind of wave through a medium, so the only way to affect a distant object would be to physically project something at it, and that can't be instant. So from post my 39;

"What you can be sure of is that nothing is instantaneous. Everything that happens needs a cause. 2 related things happening together would require the cause to travel at infinite speed, which is impossible. For something to cause an effect at distance needs some kind of mechanism, it's not done by magic."

Instantaneous for me, is nonsense.

 

[David-J-Franks]

A question. Does such entanglement require communication to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light?

Yes, (everyday, common or garden entanglement, not the gravity sort that voidpotentilenery is proposing) the last experiment I read (a long time ago) that tried to measure the speed put it at a minimum of 10,000 x light speed. There must be a mechanism behind it, it's not done by magic.

My best guess is that it's a wave disturbance through quantum fields that space consists of. Still not instant though. Any other ideas?