Heads up: Exploration Systems Architecture Study

[shuttle_rtf]

Draw the guy a map <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[nacnud]

Methane and Oxygen and Hydrogen can be got from in situe resources on Mars. Zubrins Mars missions make alot of noise about this, sounds like someone was listening <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[rfoshaug]

"This vision aims to return humans to the Moon, and then to use it as a staging point for a manned mission to Mars."<br /><br />Maybe not a physical staging point as much as a learning curve staging point. We need to go to the moon in order to learn how to go to Mars. When we've landed and lived on the moon for several years, we can build a spacecraft that can go directly from LEO to Mars. But then NASA will have used the Moon as a "staging point" as in a necessary place on the way to Mars. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">I keep hearing comments like this, that it doesn't matter what the public think, so long as Congress likes it. ... I find that shocking...or is this just the US political system?</font>/i><br /><br />It is a short-term vs. long-term thing. In the short-term you just need to make sure you keep the people who cut your check (Congress) happy. However, in the long-term, if the citizens continue to be unhappy, then it becomes a liability for the people who cut your check.<br /><br />Also, space in general and NASA's budget in particular are so low on most Americans' agenda that it doesn't matter to most politicians' re-election. This generally means no major funding increases or decreases.<br /><br />Finally (and this sounds a little scary), I think Congress on average is a little smarter than joe public. They can see the symbolic, tactical, and strategic value of a manned space program a little more clearly than the average public. The average person will run around and go "Oh my God! $100 billion." Congress is more likely to see: $1 per person per week, and each member of Congress will see this as an investment for whatever their particular interests are. Remember Congress has been funding the Office of Polar Programs through the NSF at about $350 million per year, probably something most Americans are completely unaware of.</i>

 

[shuttle_rtf]

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.

 

[kane007]

2008 will be the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter<br />Chandrayaan-1 Lunar Orbiter in 2007 (Indian) will be carry US instruments.<br /><br />The NSSDC site contains information on past, present and future probes.<br /><br /><i><font color="yellow">"keep it simple, stupid!"</font></i>/safety_wrapper>

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">please elabor8</font>/i><br /><br />The ISS can serve as an example -- the oxygen generator keeps conking out, the spacesuits have had several failures, the lights in the American portion have been burning out at a high rate, ~1/4 of oxygen candles haven't worked, gyroscopes keep dying, etc.<br /><br />Even the Apollo missions, as short as they were, demonstrated problems too. The gloves were terrible for trying to do real work. The fine dust got everywhere. Elements of the spacesuit were having problems after just a few days (in part because of the fine dust).<br /><br />Before you go on a trip with no re-supply mission for at least two years, you want to make sure issues such as lights in your spacecraft have been worked out.</i>

 

[spacefire]

the iron out all the bugs in LEO...no need to go to the Moon to test that <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[thecolonel]

<i>The reasoning of using the Moon as a test case for a Mars mission just doesn't stand.</i><br /><br />This is truly a great day, and frankly the time for dissension has come and passed. Now is the time for everyone to get on board, or get off the train. But don't stand their complaining about it as it passes by.<br /><br />I realize that this may sound rather blunt, but having dreamt my entire life from boyhood to young engineer about hoping to even get the opportunity to promote humankinds move off of this planet, I have grown sick of the everyday idealogical battle of validating mine and other's dreams.<br /><br />For whatever reason, perhaps it is the inability to identify with the intangibilty of outer space, the envy of the possession of others' dreams, or just the ever ending struggle of pessimists to outshine optimists, people love to moan and complain about space and why we should be doing other things.<br /><br />I have no further arguements, every possible angle has been exercised. For those that are on board, let's make this happen! And for those that aren't, I no longer ask for your approval, just please do the honorable thing and simply cease your active malice toward what's on the horizon in human spaceflight.

 

[spacefire]

well, I ain't on board, but I have the right to &%$#@! about it.<br />seems we lost our creativity and drive to advance in space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[mattblack]

FROM THIS DAY FORWARD, whether we have issues minor or major with the Vision ESAS, everyone on this board and others like it out there have an opportunity to build towards a permanent human presence in space. Mankind could become a multi-planet species with this first step forward. <br /><br />Too glib, too hopeful, you say? Well, we’ve all seen what dreams can build. Just as the re-building dreams in Louisiana & Mississippi will and must take hold, our future dreams can take hold, too. <br /><br />What? Too much like Apollo? It takes the good parts from Apollo and builds upon them. This is merely the first step, as I keep saying. <br /><br />What, too expensive at $100 billion+ plus bucks? Spread over a decade-and-a-half, it’s less than the cost of a new fighter plane project. Also, adjusted for inflation, it’s actually less than Apollo but has twice the capability. And with added Habitation and Science modules, far more than twice the capability. <br /><br />Already, the various left-wing, flat-Earth navel-gazing media outlets around the world (including and especially the BBC) have started b1tching on about the cost of this project. Some already have the $100 billion pricetag editorially bumped up to $120 and even $150 billion dollars. Lies and falsehoods are already attacking the expansion of man’s frontiers. Some people in this world wont be happy until we’re all riding donkeys and camels, scrubbing ourselves with rocks and living as hunter-gatherers in primitive but Socialist utopias. This our chance to rise up out of our warring, primitive states of existence and move beyond mere capitalism and feudalism into an era where manned spaceflight can be one of the rallying points for a better future for our children and grandchildren. <br /><br />As I’ve said on these boards before in several soapbox ways, it’s time for every space fan and forward thinker to get behind America and the world’s space programs and lift the future from the pages of science fiction and bring <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p>One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America <strong><em><u>CAN</u></em></strong> Afford it!!  LEO is a <strong><em>Prison</em></strong> -- It's time for a <em><strong>JAILBREAK</strong></em>!!</p> </div>

 

[spacefire]

<font color="yellow">Even the Apollo missions, as short as they were, demonstrated problems too. The gloves were terrible for trying to do real work. The fine dust got everywhere. Elements of the spacesuit were having problems after just a few days (in part because of the fine dust). </font><br /><br />Again, it can be tested on Earth.<br />Still, I want to see a permanent base on the Moon, not as a test for a Mars mission but for its own sake. The VSE should be all about that. We know how to put people on the Moon, no need to rehash all that. The first module to be designed and showed to the public should have been a permament habitat. That would fire everyone's imagination. Then, a transfer vehicle and a lunar lander. Set the private industry in an X-Prize style competition to develop a cheap way to get to LEO and transfer astronauts to the Lunar ferry.<br />That's a logical and progressive way to go about doing things <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[thecolonel]

<i>well, I ain't on board, but I have the right to &%$#@! about it. <br />seems we lost our creativity and drive to advance in space. </i><br /><br />Read my post again. Sure you have the right to complain, but do you also possess the tact, honor, and integrity not to?

 

[kane007]

NASA has interactive graphics and video available at ESAS<br /><br />The video - which is the one Mike did at his presentation - is also avialable in MOV (Quicktime) @ 26MB. Save it if you can.<br /><br /><font color="red">DO NO HARM</font><br /><br />

 

[haywood]

Obviously not Colonel.

 

[vt_hokie]

<font color="yellow"><i>"This is truly a great day, and frankly the time for dissension has come and passed. Now is the time for everyone to get on board, or get off the train. But don't stand their complaining about it as it passes by."</i></font><br /><br />Look, I'm an aerospace engineer who has been a fan of the space program since I was a small child. I'm very disappointed and underwhelmed by where we stand today, and where this "Apollo rehash" will (maybe, if all goes as planned) take us in 13 years. I will not hesitate to speak my mind, and more importantly, I would love to become involved in something meaningful, something exciting and new, and something that would truly open up the space frontier, like NASP or VentureStar were supposed to do. I cannot, however, get excited about spending $100 billion or more so that 4 people can go plant footprints on the moon two or three times a year, while other worthwhile scientific programs are gutted to pay for this foolishness. <br /><br />I hope that people with a real vision for opening up the space frontier, such as Burt Rutan, can find the financial backing to make some of their dreams reality. <br /><br /><font color="yellow"><i>"just please do the honorable thing and simply cease your active malice toward what's on the horizon in human spaceflight."</i></font><br /><br />I'll watch with interest, but I will be very disgusted if we don't see the ISS through to completion, and this moon nonsense seems to be leading NASA to jump ship on ISS as soon as it can, just as we're finally getting close to having the damn thing finished!<br /><br />When it's my tax dollars as well as yours, you'd better believe I'm going to speak up about what I see as a misuse of funds. Also, I will continue to root for SpaceX, Scaled Composites, SpaceDev, Bigelow, and all the others who wish to open up the space frontier to more than just a handful of NASA astronauts a couple of times a year.<br />

 

[vt_hokie]

<i><br />"I'm pessimistic about funding for this venture getting through congress."</i><br /><br />My prediction: We'll get the "SRB stick" launch vehicle and a Soyuz-like capsule to service the partially completed ISS after the premature retirement of the space shuttle, and not much else. The heavy lift vehicle and lunar flights will perpetually be pushed back due to budget overruns, until the program just gets cancelled.

 

[thecolonel]

<i>I'm very disappointed and underwhelmed by where we stand today, and where this "Apollo rehash" will (maybe, if all goes as planned) take us in 13 years. I will not hesitate to speak my mind</i><br /><br />My last ditch effort to drive off everyone's pessism has obviously fallen on deaf ears. This groupthink of deciding which plans do and not encompass "vision" has got to come to an end, or the naysayers for every movement are going to derail each and every idea that is presented.<br /><br />We have enough detractors in the media and other space naysayers without WE space enthusiasts in-fighting over destinations and implementations.<br /><br />If we don't come to some sort of ceasefire, truce, whatever you want to call it, then every plan is destined for the annals of the NASP, the Venturestar, and Mars Direct.<br /><br />I'm just saying that if you aren't completely behind an implementation, destination, whatever, you don't have to actively destroy it. Show your respect with your passive acceptance.

 

[thecolonel]

<i>My prediction: We'll get the "SRB stick" launch vehicle and a Soyuz-like capsule to service the partially completed ISS after the premature retirement of the space shuttle, and not much else. The heavy lift vehicle and lunar flights will perpetually be pushed back due to budget overruns, until the program just gets cancelled. </i><br /><br />One thing is for sure, being jaded will never be misinterpreted as possessing "vision".

 

[spacefire]

<font color="yellow">but do you also possess the tact, honor, and integrity not to?</font><br /><br />No, No and No!<br />I will &%$#@! and moan to no end because what is going on with the US space program is shameful indeed. How can one call this country the greatest in the world anymore? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[thecolonel]

This is where I play the "lost cause" card and move on.

 

[spacefire]

lost cause...NASA comes to mind right away <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[steve82]

I was rather surprised watching and discussing the pitch today that the most cynical comments I heard were from career NASA civil servants and the most optimistic were from contractors.

 

[vt_hokie]

<i><font color="red">If we don't come to some sort of ceasefire, truce, whatever you want to call it, then every plan is destined for the annals of the NASP, the Venturestar, and Mars Direct. </font>/i><br /><br />What doomed those projects was a lack of will more than anything else. We are no longer willing to push the envelope, and hence, we now get unimaginative, un-ambitious proposals like the current one to try to relive the glory days of Apollo. Seeing men walk on the moon would be cool, sure, but I'd rather see hundreds or thousands of people afforded the opportunity to achieve low earth orbit than spend $100 billion so that 4 people can walk on the moon in 15 years!</i>

 

[thecolonel]

Its all in the eye of the beholder. If you choose to see unimagination then you probably will.