How can an electron have weight yet move at the Speed Of L.

Saiph · Apr 5, 2006

mlorrey: actually it doesn't use E=mc^2. it uses the full version of the equatin, e^2=m^2*c^4+p^2*c^2 Photons have no rest mass, so m=0. They do have energy, and so they must then have momentum. So, it doesn't use the m*c^2 part of the equation, so the statement that it's based on e=mc^2 is technically wrong, and will give you the wrong answer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

why06 · Apr 5, 2006

I heard about thids state being used in quantum computers. How did they find this aility. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

kyle_baron · Apr 5, 2006

Is it possible that this effect gives light the ability to be in an infitnite number of parrallel lines. meaning you can view a coke bottle from any angle I don't quite follow your question. However, the way I understand it is: 1 photon to 1 lightwave (or an infinitly long line). I'm referring to the two slit light experiment where the slits can be any (infinite) distance apart. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

kyle_baron · Apr 5, 2006

I heard about thids state being used in quantum computers. How did they find this aility. Yes, you are correct. I have an article from Discover Magazine (Sept. 2001 p.43). I'll paraphrase: Many physicists around the world, including a team at Oxford with whom Deutsch works are trying to build a quantum computer that would manipulate atoms or photons and exploit the particles ability to exist simultaneously in more than one state. In fact, says Deutsch, a quantum computer could in theory perform a calculation requiring more steps than there are atoms in the entire universe. The computer would have to be manipulating and storing all that information somewhere. If the resources exceed the amount available in our universe, then the computer would have to be drawing on the resources of other universes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

robnissen · Apr 6, 2006

"In fact, says Deutsch, a quantum computer could in theory perform a calculation requiring more steps than there are atoms in the entire universe. . . . If the resources exceed the amount available in our universe, then the computer would have to be drawing on the resources of other universes." Two Comments: 1. KEWLLL!!! 2. I call Bull Sh@#.

kyle_baron · Apr 6, 2006

"In fact, says Deutsch, a quantum computer could in theory perform a calculation requiring more steps than there are atoms in the entire universe. . . . If the resources exceed the amount available in our universe, then the computer would have to be drawing on the resources of other universes." Two Comments: 1. KEWLLL!!! 2. I call Bull Sh@#. I'd have to agree with you 98%. However, I'm leaving a 2% probability that he might be right. The guy's ideas are way out there beyond pluto. He (Deutsch) also suggests (in the article) that there are multiple versions of each of us, in these other universes (yah right, sure there are...). Oh, and by the way, you shouldn't hold back your feelings, you should tell us what you really think! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

mlorrey · Apr 6, 2006

The typical RFID chip contains a serial number that is larger than the number of atoms in the galaxy. That doesn't make it impossible to compute.

centsworth_II · Apr 6, 2006

Electrons can be accelerated to near light speed in large accelerators or, in nature, by very energetic astronomical events. But... Free electrons in an electrical wire with the current turned on move about one inch per second -- a turtle could outwalk them! Your body and all the objects around you are full of electrons that are pretty much going nowhere. Electrons do not zip around the nucleus of an atom like tiny planets. They exists as a probability wave around, and even through, the nucleus. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

why06 · Apr 6, 2006

How do you know what proof is there of anything! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

pizzaguy · Apr 7, 2006

Electrons typically travel around 40,000 mph in the best conductors. I understand this to be a reference to electron travel in a WIRE. If so, I understood the speed to be MUCH SLOWER. If you are referring to electron travel in a wire (electricity) where are you getting this number? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Note to Dr. Henry: The testosterone shots are working! </div>

drwayne · Apr 7, 2006

I recall some fairly nominal drift velcoities being on the order of cm/hr in things like copper wire for DC. (for AC obviously, the kind of slosh around) Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

unlearningthemistakes · Apr 7, 2006

(puzzled) momentum is the product of body mass and velocity??? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> pain is inevitablesuffering is optional </div>

pizzaguy · Apr 7, 2006

Well, it seems to me that, in an AC or DC power circuit, the electrons would be moving rather slowly, while the ELECTRICITY itself is moving near lightspeed. Makes sense to me, and that's what an engineer told me years ago. Think about it, the electrons in the wire will move in response to the magnetic field that is moving them (in the generator.) That can't be all that fast! Now, electricity itself (that is, the propagation of the electron flow), I certainly agree, would be near lightspeed. So I move a few electrons in the wire at the generator, they move slowly down the wire, but the electrons several miles away 'feel' the 'push' right away. OK? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Note to Dr. Henry: The testosterone shots are working! </div>

yevaud · Apr 7, 2006

That's broadly the same explanation I got in Electronics as well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

mlorrey · Apr 7, 2006

The electrons miles away feel the push from the electrons near them. Its like that Newton's Cradle office toy, with the balls hanging from strings: you pick up one ball, let it go, and the ball on the opposite end pops out in reaction. The force is transfered very quickly from one end of the chain of balls to the other, but the one on one end does not itself feel a push from the one on the opposite end, just from the ball next to it. This is also similar to how "faster than c" experiments work, where waves are propagated down an existing light beam, faster than the speed of the individual photons in the beam.

pizzaguy · Apr 7, 2006

Yup, and it is the only way to make sense of how RF works in an antenna. SPeaking of RF, I like teaching the Boy Scout Radio Merit Badge - 'cause I can keep the kids attention by telling them that "in radio, we get to violate rules. Like this nonsense that current cant flow in an open circuit." <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Note to Dr. Henry: The testosterone shots are working! </div>

pizzaguy · Apr 7, 2006

Right-o! But I keep asking the same question over and over. Are you saying what I think you are saying then? (I mean about electron speed - I was asking you about that 40,000 figure two or three pages ago.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Note to Dr. Henry: The testosterone shots are working! </div>

why06 · Apr 8, 2006

bu isn't this said to be impossible by einstein? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ </div><div><ul><li>your move...</li></ul></div> </div>

Saiph · Apr 8, 2006

I remember it working like this: In a DC current: The shift of one electron is felt by the next very quickly...this disturbance propagates down the wire very fast, as each electron bumps it's neighbor. Like a water wave, the actual electrons don't have to have any net displacement (this occurs in AC currents). I.e. the speed of electricity (the disturbance) is very high. The electrons themselves drift at ~1cm/hr or so, net displacement. However, they zip around in a random fashion, backwards-forwards, left-right, etc, at very high speeds. So...basically y'all got it right, you're just looking at different aspects of the motion, net, instantaneous and group (probably wrong term there) velocities. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Saiph · Apr 8, 2006

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />(puzzled) momentum is the product of body mass and velocity???<hr /></blockquote> Momentum is kinda screwy sometimes. The standard definition, of momentum = mass*velocity is a classical definition. It starts to get warped in quantum and relativistic areas. Photons have no mass, but they do have momentum. The reason is that energy is equal to the rest mass energy of an object (the m^2c^4 part) plus the energy of motion (the p^2*c^2 part). Photons have energy, but not rest mass. So the only term that survives is the momentum term. Under the classical definition of momentum, this should vanish too. But then that means that Photons have no energy (since the derivation of the equation is correct). So...that means that momentum doesn't require mass...and that photons have it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

pizzaguy · Apr 10, 2006

Saiph, I.e. the speed of electricity (the disturbance) is very high. Yes, got it. I think we are on the same page. I was just questioning his "40,000" figure of several posts ago. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Note to Dr. Henry: The testosterone shots are working! </div>

pizzaguy · Apr 10, 2006

bu isn't this said to be impossible by einstein? IF you are addressing me, you've gotta be a LOT more specific than that. Isn't WHAT impossible? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Note to Dr. Henry: The testosterone shots are working! </div>

Saiph · Apr 10, 2006

btw, I found some figures for copper from hyperphysics.com: Speed of electricity: pretty close to C drift velocity: 0.00028 m/s Electron velocity: 1.57x10^6 m/s <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

unlearningthemistakes · Apr 10, 2006

yeah. I'm kinda newbie about physics and I know Saiph's reasonings are admirable. to saiph: thanks for the response. (10Mbytes added to my memory chip. ) <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> pain is inevitablesuffering is optional </div>

Saiph · Apr 10, 2006

No problem guys. As I said, it's an odd concept that arises out of the difference between modern mechanics, and classical mechanics. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

How can an electron have weight yet move at the Speed Of L.

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