Is dark matter all it's cracked up to be?

cosmictalk · Mar 17, 2006

My ideas were to open the mind up to the possible reasons behind the problems faced in quatum. I was hoping for someone who would be able to relate and understand that free will is passed on to everything we see and learn about in the workings and that includes inner workings that take place with all matter including energy /space/time/. Now that hopefully I have reached someone they will or sometime in a drunkered state and recovering from a hangover such as someone who have been finally acknowledged in the scientific community will take this and fly beyond our boundries. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> now I will go back to the silence and back ground that is my norm. Since instead of even trying to understand attack and think they know all. That saying those who believe they know all know nothing comes to mind Best wishes to those brave enough to come fourth with knew ideas

Saiph · Mar 17, 2006

cosmic: <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Like for instance magnetics attracts and allows for energy to come about in copper. It is very similar to zero point idea because it has no energy. <hr /></blockquote> Lets try this again. Magnetism isn't bringing energy out of copper when electricity is generated. Energy from an outside source, like falling water, or burning chemicals releasng heat, are used to move the magnet. The magnets motion by the wire causes the electrons to move, thus taking the energy from the magnet, and being put into the motion of the electrons. There is no energy creation...just transfers. If you're wondering where the energy in the water or coal came from...that came from the sun. Light is absorbed, heating the water, which evaporates, falls as rain high up on a mountain. As the water runs down towars the ocean, it goes through a dam, turning a turbine. Coal is highly compacted carbon molecules formerly in plants..which absorbed sunlight and stored energy in chemical bonds. Okay...so where does the energy in sunlight come from? It comes from fusion, where hydrogen atoms are turned into helium atoms, and a small amount of mass is converted into energy. All energy transfers...no energy creation. Now, if all your ideas were to discuss the possible role of free will...first, that doesn't belong in a thread on dark matter. But second, you should have said that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

nova_explored · Mar 18, 2006

whoa whoa whoa, nice shootin tex. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> good grief man, put a period in those run ons. I'm not trying to suppress your views, and i am certainly not belidgering you. Just constructive criticism. But it is strange when someone refers to a person, deceased, in the present tense. so, yes, back to the topic. dark matter. background radiation? this scintillator device? and regarding your last line- "the more i learn the less i know." - Richard Feynman. (comes to mind) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

I am a ****** what would I know I know nothing about life I just live it..... what right do I have to bring up anything or answer anything? I do not there is no right to my opinions and explainations on stuff that can not be explaina s to why there seems to be energy being created well that is all in our head and we just live in our own little realities that have no place in the scientific world...... go go to another world that isn't here........ I refuse to answer anything so do not post me I will read your views and others do not listen to me I allllllllllll wrong about my whole world! I can not understand what I am reading so maybe I should not even read your sh.....t Now I'm trolling..........beep beep run all over me

nova_explored · Mar 18, 2006

cosmic, i liked your posts earlier. what happened to take you off course? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

you and your buddy take your freaking math and explain my behavior. come on you think that matter has no behavior...has not repels or free choice or can create new matters,,,,, because we live in a box and our universe is the only thing that exists..........I think not do your freaking math and explain to me my own behavior than if you can do that than you can tell me the complete workings of our precious world..... until than keep accusing me unfairly of being something I'm not

Saiph · Mar 18, 2006

can math explain human behavior...I don't think so, but that's a topic for another thread (feel free to start one, might be interesting to read!) I see no evidence that matter has choice at all. Something acts upon it, and it responds, straight cause and effect. It doesn't choose to attract or repel, certain particles always atract, others always repel. If you believe otherwise, and wish to talk, bring forth some evidence, and people will listen. People will question the evidence, your conclusions etc, and you'll question thiers. This is a discussion/debate forum afterall. But, if you do, a more appropriate location would be a new thread, so the topic isn't buried in a dark matter thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

there is no inner acting and exchanges being made on the matters discussed? such as dark energy and anti matter., ect. there are no behaviors? cosmic rays do not bring fourth other things and inner exchange? I have a rock on the ground. is it still with out motion? than how come it is absorbing radiation and water? get real,,,,,,, man you saw exactly were I was coming from and you avoided like it was a snake.... this is life dude , there is no just black and white do you think things do not go out of the norm of scientific observation? How do you think this possible? You need the proof and yet you can not come up with and neither can your buddy that is why you go to grammer attacking and insults . wbw I thought was cleared up on my end.

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

(People will question the evidence, your conclusions etc, and you'll question thiers. This is a discussion/debate forum afterall. ) That is why I'm here! But yet you have not questioned any of my ideas instead you have just insulted and falsely accused me of things . Explain how you believe things such as dark energy or ddark matter only repel and attract and do not have any sort of free will or inner actions with the matters around it.

bonzelite · Mar 18, 2006

you realize this whole dark matter and energy issue is about gravity. gravity = unknown. somewhere in there, the answer in the problem itself. the answer is within the unknowing. we should go there.

buzzzsaw · Mar 18, 2006

Ok.... I am discribing two effects of zero point energy. The first effect deals with the interaction of zero point energy with matter, in that the dynamic properties of matter and the zero point energy gives rise to what we observe as gravity. The radiation of energy by matter and the replacement of the energy levels of a particular partical gives a partical a net directional push. The string acts like an antenna both radiating energy and collecting energy. Second is the action of zero point energy with space. Zero point energy creates virtual particals. Each of the virtual particals is polorizing and as the number of particals per unit volume of space increases due to energy density per the same unit volume of space increases the force reaches a point where the volume of space actually expands. This means as space expands the rate of expansion would excellerate. Now if the rate of increase of the zero point energy field were to remain constant or even decrease space would act either to diminish or remain the same. It is a dynamic process. This isn't one concept but rather two, how the zero point field acts with respect to matter and how it reacts with the volume of space itself.

bonzelite · Mar 18, 2006

you don't subscribe to background radiation bonz? Does it mean something else? Because it does fit with inflation models rather eloquently? waht else could it mean then? (that is not intended to put you on the spot btw). CMBR is the slam-dunk crown jewel of BB theory. that and redshift. you remove those, and the BB theory tanks. i would have more faith in CMBR being of BB origin if a version of an open, infinite, and homogeneous unverse were the "official" word. but it's not. yet CMBR is uniform and homogeneous, suggesting an open universe. what is observed in the cosmos, however, is a clumpy, non-homogenous universe that is said to be closed, contradicting CMBR. actual cause for CMBR is not actually known, but i could just as easily say that it is the result of the immense distance, of infinite distance, that all radiation must travel to be detected on earth, coming from every direction, as an average "temperature" of the void.

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

do you think it possible that their are things created in space that absorb radiation and could be in large quantities out there? that could explain for our radiation detectors not detecting things with radiation because it is actually being absorbed by it! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm using things we have observed here on earth as a reference and how its inner acts with radiation. such as black carbon, zeolite. Zeolite really is fascinating because of its small pores it attracts radiation inside, and I was wondering if something similar could be taking place out in outer space!

bonzelite · Mar 18, 2006

^^^sure. my first knee-jerk idea is black holes. but i don't really buy into them. something like that could absorb radiation most certainly, were it a real thing. a totally off the wall idea without proof is that gravity, as an energy state, may absorb huge quantities of radiation in order to do work. flat radial velocities, ie, spin, of galaxies may have "missing mass" and/or radiation due to gravity's thirst for energy. the missing mass may actually be the gravity itself "taking over" to power the galactic motor, turning it flatly as it is observed to spin as one unit, like a flat wheel spinning, in complete contradiction to official laws. the official "factual" theory of gravity does not even entertain that it is remotely an actual energy form, or that it consumes energy, as it is allegedly "exempt" from doing any "work." it is a "free" result, supposedly a result of an object's mass, as a sort of byproduct of mass. i'm saying gravity itself is an actual energy form, perhaps a state of matter, if not a state of energy.

nova_explored · Mar 18, 2006

well you are displaying attributes of the casimir effect You've repelled people by the resonance of dropping down to the lowest possible energy state we can think of - harsh, abrasive behavior. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

(a totally off the wall idea without proof is that gravity, as an energy state, may absorb huge quantities of radiation in order to do work) hmmm. never thought about gravity in that way! I realise that black carbon would have to come from exhaust , but is there anything else out there that could be spread out and being created by some sort of gasses that could account for the dark matter? maybe we have even small particles that have really small pores like the zeolite rocks here on earth that actually attract radiation. what is your opinion on that possibility?

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

it sounds like your trying to describe yourself, actually! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> and you came up with this observation how? through math or personal observation? this was my point and you have proven it! I do not need math to back me up, but personal observation about how I see , read, and observe the behaviors around me. thanks for your help!

cosmictalk · Mar 18, 2006

well you are displaying attributes of the casimir effect You've repelled people by the resonance of dropping down to the lowest possible energy state we can think of - harsh, abrasive behavior. Now for my second point you can not explain behavior with math, you just tried to describe the matter itself not the reason behind the behavior (which is a reaction to other matters)

CalliArcale · Mar 19, 2006

Okay, this is probably enough of a digression already, but I will say that math is very appropriate when attempting to explain the behavior of the universe. Math has some definite advantages. It is concrete, it is discrete, and it lets you see the data in a way that makes it harder to be swayed by wishful thinking. It's very useful, in other words, for combatting the natural human tendency to jump to conclusions. It's also good for making clear, concise analyses of the situation. For instance, you really can't figure out what element you're looking at through spectroscopy without using quite a lot of math. Getting back to the subject of this thread, dark matter, which by definition cannot be detected by ordinary means, must be detected by its effect on other things. Making reasonable estimates which can then be used in further research requires math. The other great thing about math in these situations is that because it is so clear and discrete, it gives you a ready-made vehicle for explaining your model to others. With math and the right evidence, you can give them something more than "it seems right to me". It's hard to argue with math. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Plus, it's a common language. The math can provide a way of making your idea clear to somebody else. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

nova_explored · Mar 19, 2006

listen, you will refrain anymore from your tepid callousness in reference to myself, and others. Your insolence is gone on far too much here. I'm not even the one talking about matter, dufus. But yet you seem to want, or need to attack. You're not under fire, so why in the world can't you take a moment, breathe, and start seeing who is talking to you, personally, and referencing the right person! I mean, i'm not even in this debate. Never once mentioned anything about matter or math. so i have no idea what world is going on in that head of yours to keep coming back to me. i was actually intrigued by your posts. live and learn. surreal. and...good luck. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

nova_explored · Mar 19, 2006

and dude, the reference to casimir was an obvious joke that i think you are the only one tightly wound enough to take literally and seriously. seriously.... goodluck <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Mar 19, 2006

....another great thing about math, too, is that you can tweak the equations to conform to just about what you need. so you can create an abstract model that is not in any way reflecting a reality anywhere. as long as mathematics remains the altarpiece of cosmology, and not the errand boy, we're not going anywhere soon.

Saiph · Mar 19, 2006

well...the other great thing about math...and the scientific community...is those "tweaks" are visible to all...and are under scrutiny. Those tweaks and assumptions have to be justified, or your work gets nailed. Even if it confirms what everybody has been hoping for! Actually the universe appears to be almost exactly flat (i.e. curvature of 1)...not closed and clumpy...or all that open. The CMBR observations fit's pretty well with a flat universe IIRC. BTW, got a line from a friend. WMAP's 2nd year results came out last week (1 year late)...the restriction on various conditions and constants determined by WMAP strengthen Lambda-Cold dark matter models. Some of the problems/uncertainties they had (i.e. this doesn't work so well if ______ is larger/smaller than _____ sorta problems) have been cleared up...in a positive fashion. Cosmic: I don't really recall accusing you of anything... As for your comments I don't know where you're comming from, or where you're going. If you wish to discuss this idea of particles having a choice, etc, feel free to start a thread for it, let me know, and I'll drop on by. As it is, I think this particular discussion is divergent enough from dark matter that it warrants it's own thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

cosmictalk · Mar 19, 2006

My point was that math is only a tool and it has its flaws because we are not just trying to describe one thing or another but many things in complexeties that challenges us to come up with new math and were talking about something that is alive and that is our universe. You can not just use math to do that but observation, and these theories are not just a math but a string of observations that we put word termonlogies to to describe a list of actions and processes. I'm also trying to make it clear that I'm not just throwing out peer speculation on fantasy but on real tangeble evidence from observation. and that the scientific community has given definetions of and than ignore those definitions based because of different laws of reaction but still those in the science world (not all) have been ignoring this fact they ignore their own definitions. Hope that makes sense! So my ideas are not just pure fancy!

cosmictalk · Mar 19, 2006

stop contradicting yourself , you went on the attack and tried to discribe me and you have not had a thing sink in as to what I'm talking about? I am trying to make a point here! You help and also you butted in so remember that fact! Since you did you allowed yourself to be part of the topic. I have a right to discuss that topic, and were talking about using math to explain a behavior and that was what you were tring to accomplish right? so are you coming or going?

Is dark matter all it's cracked up to be?

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