Is postponing Space Exploration the Best Way to Finance Early Childhood Education?

Towner · Jun 23, 2008

I don't mean to get overly political here, but I just read that Barack Obama plans to postpone the Constellation program for five years in order to pay for an Early Childhood Education program. Here's the link:  http://io9.com/389634/will-barack-obama-destroy-the-us-space-program  I like Obama a lot, but I don't like the attitude that we must continue our basically stagnant approach to space exploration.  I want to see us colonize the Moon and Mars, and be part of humanity's reach for the stars.  I think putting off the program for five years is like putting off higher education for our species.  If we want the U.S. to continue to lead in space exploration, or at least keep up, I think we need to push more than we have.  I am just not sure how, and I'd welcome some opinions and advice.  I've written a letter to his campaign, but I doubt he'll see it.  I think some letters to the editors in major newspapers would be good, and maybe some  petitions that are well thought out and crafted that we can present to the campaign.So any ideas on how to change Mr. Obama's mind?  Isn't there some other program or two that could be postponed or pared down to help finance his early education initiative?  I'm happy that Mr. McCain is apparently supporting the Constellation program.  Since Mr. Obama has an excellent shot at the presidency, I don't want to wait until November to start work on changing his mind about this.   Thoughts?  Comments?

MeteorWayne · Jun 23, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't mean to get overly political here, but I just read that Barack Obama plans to postpone the Constellation program for five years in order to pay for an Early Childhood Education program. Here's the link:  http://io9.com/389634/will-barack-obama-destroy-the-us-space-programI like Obama a lot, but I don't like the attitude that we must continue our basically stagnant approach to space exploration.  I want to see us colonize the Moon and Mars, and be part of humanity's reach for the stars.  I think putting off the program for five years is like putting off higher education for our species.  If we want the U.S. to continue to lead in space exploration, or at least keep up, I think we need to push more than we have.  I am just not sure how, and I'd welcome some opinions and advice.  I've written a letter to his campaign, but I doubt he'll see it.  I think some letters to the editors in major newspapers would be good, and maybe some  petitions that are well thought out and crafted that we can present to the campaign.So any ideas on how to change Mr. Obama's mind?  Isn't there some other program or two that could be postponed or pared down to help finance his early education initiative?  I'm happy that Mr. McCain is apparently supporting the Constellation program.  Since Mr. Obama has an excellent shot at the presidency, I don't want to wait until November to start work on changing his mind about this.   Thoughts?  Comments?  Posted by Towner</DIV>History has shown that any savings from reducing space exploration are absorbed by the overall budget, and don't help any of the things they are supposed to. Cutting the Iraq war by 2 months in duration would provide just as much money, and save US lives to boot. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 23, 2008

My thoughts are early childhood education is not the responsibility or purview of the federal government.  Every year the feds want to spend more and more money on education because it's a crowd-pleasing subject and is an easy way to get votes - but the sad fact is that federal government involvement has not improved our education system, and more money isn't going to change that.  That may be a politically unpopular position, but it's the truth.If they want to look at successful government education, look at the public university system, which successfully competes with private institutions and results in world-renowned higher education.  And many of those institutions are successful without any help from the federal government.Conversely, due to the expensive nature of space exploration it makes no sense to have individual state or local governments trying to fund it, and even if they did missions would be few and far between, and certainly ambitious projects like the ISS or Moon missions would be completely unfeasible.   Bottom line is that space exploration is something that needs to be addressed at the federal level, education is not.Just IMHO but I think it's way past time our federal government stopped getting involved in all the things it has no business being involved in and concentrate on doing better in the activities that are actually among its necessary responsibilities.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

samkent · Jun 23, 2008

You can change his mind at the ballot box. You can't buy better early childhood development. But you can expect more from the parents. It was simple when I was a kid. My mom said.. If you get in trouble at school they have my permission to spank your tail. And when you get home I'll do it again myself. plus If you get a bad grade there willbe no playing. You will have to sit at the table and read your text book and the write on paper what you read. then Now find something to do or I'll find something for you. She meant every word and I knew it so I didn't test the boundrys. Now If Mr Obama put money into REQUIRED parenting classes, that might be another matter. One semester for each age bracket with homework and exams.... Maybe thats a platform I could use!

aphh · Jun 23, 2008

If Constellation gets canned, private sector would need to take responsibility of the future of space exploration. Private groups are already planning for moon missions and space tourism, so all hope would not be lost.

DrRocket · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If Constellation gets canned, private sector would need to take responsibility of the future of space exploration. Private groups are already planning for moon missions and space tourism, so all hope would not be lost. Posted by aphh</DIV>If Constellation gets canned it will stay canned for a long time.  It is very hard to resurrect a program that does not put votes into politician's pockets.  And there is no way at this point that private companies are going to the moon.  There is no economic incentive.  Space tourism will not pay the bills.  In fact, once you get past a few ultra-wealthy customers, space tourism is doomed.So, if you want to see a manned space program continue, your best bet is to get behind Constellation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

dryson · Jun 24, 2008

The real problem with politics like has been said is it is mostly to please the masses, which from my general observations still tend to be lemmings and un-interested in real life situations like space exploration. Once we spread to the Moon and to Mars, education will follow pertaining to this aspect of growth for the human race. Another real problem is people that get into politics to make gains only for theirself is a real future killer. They have no understanding of the real human nature of humans being explorer's but are more interested in what they can put into their pockets so they can sit upon a throne and play king or queen. The un-intellectual still control the planet and will until they have destroyed it due to  their greed. The only thing that we can do is post here and continue to create new concepts and visions for the future. One day the arrogance of those that I speak of above and below will prove history correct once again, only brave people create change the rest sit at home and ***** about what is happening.  According to religions, the reason empires fell apart after their glory was because they pushed to hard and to fast to find everything there was to find on the planet. They did and those empires fell apart and now rest in history books. The difference today compared to back then is we have the ability to set out and expand humanity to the Moon and Mars, those holding this notion back are the decendant's of those that cautioned about building to fast as once you have climbed high into the sky and can go no further your house will collaspe in on you. They didnt have ORION or the shuttle or even the I.S.S. But we do and there is no reason to not climb higher, we can only better ourselves and humanity, otherwise the house will collapse back in upon it's builder because we have the ability to build higher towers and we didn'tAll that needs to be done is introduce science and math at earlier grades, the next series would have to be a succesion of presidents and world leaders vested in space exploration for at least 100 years or 25 lines worth of leaders. The problem is that everything is segragated so that only the most powerful majority has a say. Another reason is because the same types of politics from ancient times, Greek, Roman, Egyptian ect. is still the norm. Politics hasn't changed but the world has since then and so too must the politics. Humanity is circling like a wagon train going no where when all of the keys sit in the center of the wagon train.

steve82 · Jun 24, 2008

In discussing Obama's plan it is important to make sure everything is called by its proper definition and not the con job they are trying to pull over on us:"Postpone the program 5 years" = CANCEL THE PROGRAM"Early Childhood Education" = DAY CARE

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>.. Thoughts?  Comments?  Posted by Towner</DIV> Yeah, I have a thought and a comment.Thought: The political platform known as "Early Childhood Eductation" translates to "Free Day Care." Comment:  The entire platform of "Early Childhood Education" is nothing more that a way for a politician to say "Elect me and I will give you money."  Now, whether that is free day care or something you couldn't otherwise afford, the result is the same.  It's a ploy to buy a vote.  Nothing more. In the US, we have what is called the "Public School System."  It's a huge, bloated beast that moves extremely slow yet manages to destroy just about everything it touches.  Why?  Because, most people aren't smart enough to get the heck out of the way.  So, now we have a politician that says they are going to give even more power to this beast and give it even greater opportunities to consume others.  You know what I say?FIX WHAT WE HAVE FIRST INSTEAD OF MAKING IT BIGGEROur public school system produces students that can't read.  It produces test-takers that can't think. It spews out graduates that aren't qualified to do anything and have no hope of seeking higher education because they either can't afford it or just don't have the skills.  What kind of disgusting system is it that we are funding?  We've got great colleges and crappy general schools.  Why is that?  Colleges compete for students, public schools do not.  Colleges are accredited, public schools are "teh gubberment" and get rubber stamped.Fix what we have.  FIX the public school system.  Then, and only then, would I even consider a politician's offer to further educate our young children as something more than a insult and a blatant attempt at vote pandering. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

neuvik · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Our public school system produces students that can't read.  It produces test-takers that can't think. It spews out graduates that aren't qualified to do anything and have no hope of seeking higher education because they either can't afford it or just don't have the skills.  Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>Remember those kids who just sat in the back of class talking about Anarchy, drawing shrooms all day, stealing the teachers laser pointers, the carbide bits from the lathes in metal shop, and drawing fallices in the library books; AND STILL MANAGED TO PASS SOME HOW? They just throw anyone through the system.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I don't think I'm alone when I say, "I hope more planets fall under the ruthless domination of Earth!"SDC Boards: Power by PLuck - Ph**king Luck </div>

Andrey992 · Jun 24, 2008

Wait didn't he change his plan? according to those links, he supports constellation program: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=26647 http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/534707/barack_obama_publishes_his_space_policy.html http://spaceports.blogspot.com/2008/01/obamas-space-policy-announced.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

docm · Jun 25, 2008

Believe me as a former educator and husband of an active teacher of 30+ years: funding has little to do with the quality of education.  Otherwise how does one explain that kids in private schools charging $5k a year/kid can do better than kids in districts that spend 3 times that much?  No, the problem is in the dedication of the teachers (rarely related to pay scale), the amount of politically correct BS is in the curriculum, the involvement of the parents and how hardassed the principal is.  Also important is that the district doesn't participate in "program de jour",  meaning the wasting money on expensive reading/math programs that they change every other year instead of using tried and true (and usually free) methods throughout the curriculum.  Kids in such schools get very confused when the program they used in lower L (K-3rd grade) isn't coordinated with that used in upper L (3rd to 6th grade).  This kind of crap can really screw them up heading into middle school.  Also not helpful is that many of these designer programs limit by contract the ability of the school to use "outside sources", meaning books they already have in the library, in the reading program.  Yes, they have to use only the books sold by the company that sold them the reading program....and they don't come cheap.You wouldn't believe how many school districts fall for this kind of BS, or how high a percentage of the schools material budget it can cost.Then there is that far too many school administrators today are not,  and have never been, teachers.  Like far too many other fields public school administration has been turned over to "Masters of <whatever> Administration" who have little hands-on experience in the fields they manage, and the effect has been as deleterious to schools as it has been to industry and government.  That's right: your principal, program director or even the school superintendent may very well have never spent a day in the classroom.  Doesn't that make you all warm and tingly? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

neuvik · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Doesn't that make you all warm and tingly? Posted by docm</DIV>Not at all...I thought it was always a pay thing.    Do a majority of parents do their part in the education of children?  Or is it just drop of the kids and show up to parents day once an a while.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I don't think I'm alone when I say, "I hope more planets fall under the ruthless domination of Earth!"SDC Boards: Power by PLuck - Ph**king Luck </div>

qso1 · Jun 25, 2008

The idea that we can somehow increase such things as education budgets or social budgets by cutting NASA has been one of the most successful failed arguments in history IMO. It began post Apollo..."If we can send a few men to the moon, why can't we cure disease? Feed the hungry? House the homeless?Many a politician has used this argument to garner votes. Problem is, the argument is proven to be seriously flawed. Fact is, the post Apollo critics got their wish from 1970 to about 1975 when NASAs budget were reduced by about 50%. Pre Apollo budgets of 2-4% GDP were the norm before 1970. After 1970, post Apollo budgets went down to approx. 1% GDP and today to where they are now or about .6% GDP.If one has kept up with current events for the past couple of decades. The U.S. is no longer number 1 in categories relating to education. Most folks would say the U.S. education system is in need of serious reform. So what happen to all the money saved from NASA cuts since Apollo?If a dumb a** schmuck like me can see this, why not Barack Obama or anyone else who clings to this hollow argument and is far smarter and much more successful than I am? As I see it, the problem lies not in the goals. The goals of curing disease etc. are certainly noble goals and if implemented, we might be able to do some of the things critics of human spaceflight spending wanted to see done.The problem is, the money saved from NASA cuts post Apollo probably went to increase the budgets of education etc. But much more went to such things as the S&L bailout, deficit spending year after year for decades and currently, the Iraq rebuild which if we cannot afford NASA budgets...we surely cannot afford to spend money on Iraq.Look at the national debt...some 10 trillion dollars. If we cut NASA by 10 billion which basically would end human spaceflight...we would realize something like 10 hours of savings over the course of a year to put it in perspective. Wow I'm impressed, lets cut NASA tomorrow!Unfortunately, the old tired anti human spaceflight argument won the day long ago. I don't see much of a future for human spaceflight once Bush is out and especially if Democrats get elected which is likely for the simple reason the public generally changes parties after one has served two terms.The only other hope is that the private sector does succeed with human spaceflight where NASA has failed (Cheap access) because NASA has been so short funded for so long. BTW, you or anyone else wont be able to change his mind about this. Human spaceflight critics minds are made up. In Obama's case...he says NASA has no vision. NASA has a vision...politicians and the public refuse to fund it, year after year..and now decade after decade.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

docm · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not at all...I thought it was always a pay thing.    Do a majority of parents do their part in the education of children?  Or is it just drop of the kids and show up to parents day once an a while.   Posted by neuvik</DIV>The majority of parents trust the school to do right and have little to do with their kids education, and that includes teaching them to read before they start Kindergarten and keeping track of their homework and the stuff they bring home in their back packs. I've been to school awards programs where you're lucky to see 4 relatives show up in a building with 300+ kids. Conferences are better, but not great.  Maybe a 20% turnout. Then there are the 10% of parents that when they do show up you can see that the kids problems are genetic. Sad.That said, this doesn't obviate the responsibilty of the schools for their failings, which are major.  One of the worst things to happen to our schools in the last 40 years is the success the teachers unions have had in pushing the idea that higher teacher pay equals better education, which is a total fabrication as noted above.  In truth the biggest gain from higher pay is in how many teachers go to Mexico during the Christmas and spring breaks.  In my wifes building the percentage was close to 50%.  The salary/benefit packages have become so large that many districts can't buy basic supplies; paper, pencils, new books (save for those damnedable reading programs) or science gear.  Many don't even have a geography program.Another side effect of teachers unions is the ease of getting tenure, which is virtually automatic after 2-3 years instead of the "old days" where it took 5+ years and was based on merit.  This makes teachers almost impossible to fire absent a felony conviction for sleeping with a kid. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

trailrider · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't mean to get overly political here, but I just read that Barack Obama plans to postpone the Constellation program for five years in order to pay for an Early Childhood Education program. Here's the link:  http://io9.com/389634/will-barack-obama-destroy-the-us-space-programI like Obama a lot, but I don't like the attitude that we must continue our basically stagnant approach to space exploration.  I want to see us colonize the Moon and Mars, and be part of humanity's reach for the stars.  I think putting off the program for five years is like putting off higher education for our species.  If we want the U.S. to continue to lead in space exploration, or at least keep up, I think we need to push more than we have.  I am just not sure how, and I'd welcome some opinions and advice.  I've written a letter to his campaign, but I doubt he'll see it.  I think some letters to the editors in major newspapers would be good, and maybe some  petitions that are well thought out and crafted that we can present to the campaign.So any ideas on how to change Mr. Obama's mind?  Isn't there some other program or two that could be postponed or pared down to help finance his early education initiative?  I'm happy that Mr. McCain is apparently supporting the Constellation program.  Since Mr. Obama has an excellent shot at the presidency, I don't want to wait until November to start work on changing his mind about this.   Thoughts?  Comments?  Posted by Towner</DIV>What we need to do is change the minds of the voters...and since we don't have megabucks for campaign ads, its tough. What you can do is to write to your Senators and Representatives, as well as Senator McCain, (and all candidates), pointing out to them that "postponing" Constellation by five years will cause LOST JOBS!  After all, what are all the aerospace engineers, scientists, and technicians supposed to do for a living for those five years?  I don't think there are enough taxi cab positions or burger-flipping jobs to absorb them.  (The old "joke" in the 1970's, in Southern California was that you needed a PhD in an aerospace field...to get a cab driver's license!  There were so many of them doing that!  Once I got laid off nearly twenty years ago, at age 46, there were no aerospace jobs to be had. I make custom leather sporting goods!  It may pay bills, but it isn't helping send Humanity to the stars!)Write, phone, e-mail and talk to the candidates, regardless of political affiliation!Ad Luna! Ad Ares! Ad Astra!

holmec · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't mean to get overly political here, but I just read that Barack Obama plans to postpone the Constellation program for five years in order to pay for an Early Childhood Education program. Here's the link:  http://io9.com/389634/will-barack-obama-destroy-the-us-space-programI like Obama a lot, but I don't like the attitude that we must continue our basically stagnant approach to space exploration.  I want to see us colonize the Moon and Mars, and be part of humanity's reach for the stars.  I think putting off the program for five years is like putting off higher education for our species.  If we want the U.S. to continue to lead in space exploration, or at least keep up, I think we need to push more than we have.  I am just not sure how, and I'd welcome some opinions and advice.  I've written a letter to his campaign, but I doubt he'll see it.  I think some letters to the editors in major newspapers would be good, and maybe some  petitions that are well thought out and crafted that we can present to the campaign.So any ideas on how to change Mr. Obama's mind?  Isn't there some other program or two that could be postponed or pared down to help finance his early education initiative?  I'm happy that Mr. McCain is apparently supporting the Constellation program.  Since Mr. Obama has an excellent shot at the presidency, I don't want to wait until November to start work on changing his mind about this.   Thoughts?  Comments?  Posted by Towner</DIV> 1. How true is this?  Sounds like scuttlebutt. 2. If this is his view point its proably for the election, but in reality it would be a hard sell in Congress.  Lots of options when it comes to funding. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

Crossover_Maniac · Jun 25, 2008

The only thing it accomplishes is empowering teacher unions and bureaucrats and give Obama the ignorant and uneducated voting block, well the ones that hasn't been turned into Obombies yet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Feel the Hope-nosis </div>

Crossover_Maniac · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If Constellation gets canned, private sector would need to take responsibility of the future of space exploration. Private groups are already planning for moon missions and space tourism, so all hope would not be lost. Posted by aphh</DIV>And if government can stay out of the way of private companies and not tax and regulate them out of existence, then yes, eventually, they will succeed.  I wouldn't put it past at least one of them making into LEO. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Feel the Hope-nosis </div>

qso1 · Jun 25, 2008

1. How true is this?  Sounds like scuttlebutt. 2. If this is his view point its proably for the election, but in reality it would be a hard sell in Congress.  Lots of options when it comes to funding. Posted by holmecActually, I dont think cutting NASA budgets are that hard a sell in Congress, its been going on for decades and NASA has tried from time to time for decades to get a human mars program going. The problem isnt cutting NASAs budget. The hard sell is what to do with the money once its been cut from NASA.This is one reason I'm so critical of the cutting when its linked to some feel good sounding use that in actuality...has about little chance of actually happening. I also agree that it is election posturing on Obama's part more than anything else, unless he turns out to really be against the idea of human spaceflight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

DrRocket · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> 1. How true is this?  Sounds like scuttlebutt. 2. If this is his view point its proably for the election, but in reality it would be a hard sell in Congress.  Lots of options when it comes to funding. Posted by holmec</DIV>http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_space_thewritestuff/2008/01/obama-delay-moo.htmlhttp://www.thespacereview.com/article/1100/1http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/obamas_plan_for_nasa.html http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2007/11/obama_wants_to.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Boris_Badenov · Jun 25, 2008

Whitey On the Moon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div> </div>

Crossover_Maniac · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Whitey On the Moon Posted by boris1961</DIV> NASA: the whipping boy for the ignorant and those yearning for a handout.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Feel the Hope-nosis </div>

nimbus · Jun 26, 2008

Taking from a program that manages very high efficiency with only 1.5% of the budget (NASA) to feed some other part of the budget that's largely mismanaged (couch potatoes cashing in welfare for jumbo widescreen TVs, etc) - that's either stupidity or a hint of corruption.  Obama being a product of the Michigan Democratic party gives some clue of which of the two this is a case of. In billions of US dollars out of the 2008 1.075 trillion dollar budget:Education:        56 B$  (K-12)             31 B$ Medicare:        386 B$ Medicaid:        202 B$ SocialSec:       608 B$ NASA:              17 B$  space ops:        6.7 B$  science:            5.5 B$  exploration.sys  3.8 B$  aeronautics:      0.558 B$  source: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2612699490_ddeba07337_o.jpg  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

docm · Jun 26, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Obama being a product of the Michigan Democratic party.... Posted by nimbus</DIV>I resent you saying that Obama is a product of the Michigan Democratic party; he's actually a product of the Chicago, Illinois Democratic party, otherwise known as the "Daly Machine". Michigan Democrats can't hold a candle to the level of corruption present in the Chicago party...not even close.  Not to say they don't try, but still....<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Is postponing Space Exploration the Best Way to Finance Early Childhood Education?

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