Large Hadron collider soon operational.

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kyle_baron

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Testing for the other dimensions will involve measuring the initial and resulting energy.We can potentially learn about building wormholes too.&nbsp; Invitation to good video of Brian Greene explaining: &nbsp;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtdE662eY_M&feature=related(edited for spelling correction) <br />Posted by john1r</DIV></p><p><strong>Thank you, that was an excellent video.&nbsp; The thing I like about Brian Greene, is that he can take something as complicated as String Theory, and explain it in Layman's terms.&nbsp; This tells me, that he really understads what he says.&nbsp; The Calabi Yau (10 String dimensions) that fold inwards and intertwine, was remarkable.&nbsp; Does folding in, mean that they could be moving all around us?&nbsp; This is a rhetorical question.</strong><br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4"><strong></strong></font></p> </div>
 
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R1

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<font size="2">yes, I believe they are expected to be everywhere.</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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baulten

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I heard about a minor glitch a couple days ago, but didn't bother posting it.&nbsp; Apparently worse that first realized.Officials: Damage to collider forces 2-month haltGENEVA (AP) &mdash; The world's largest atom smasher &mdash; which was launched with great fanfare earlier this month &mdash; has been damaged worse than previously thought and will be out of commission for at least two months, its operators said Saturday. Experts have gone into 17-mile (27-kilometer) circular tunnel housing the Large Hadron Collider under the Swiss-French border to examine the damage that halted operations about 36 hours after its Sept. 10 start-up, said James Gillies, spokesman for CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research. "It's too early to say precisely what happened, but it seems to be a faulty electrical connection between two magnets that stopped superconducting, melted and led to a mechanical failure and let the helium out," Gillies told The Associated Press. Gillies said the sector that was damaged will have to be warmed up well above the absolute zero temperature used for operations so that repairs can be made &mdash; a time-consuming process. "A number of magnets raised their temperature by around 100 degrees," Gillies said. "We have now to warm up the whole sector in a controlled manner before we can actually go in and repair it."It was at first thought the failure of an electrical transformer that handles part of the cooling was the problem, CERN said. That transformer was replaced last weekend and the machine was lowered back to operating temperature to prepare for a resumption of operations. But then more inspections were needed and it was determined that the problem was worse than initially thought, said Gillies.&nbsp;Rest of article here: (I just cut out the fluff)http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2008-09-20-particle-collider_N.htm <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>Terrible news.&nbsp; Hopefully they are overestimating the damage... but I doubt it, sadly. &nbsp; </p>
 
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centsworth_II

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<p><font color="#333399"><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Terrible news.&nbsp; Hopefully they are overestimating the damage... but I doubt it, sadly. &nbsp; <br /> Posted by baulten</DIV><br /></font>The impression I get is that there is not a lot of damage but that the fix is just time consuming.&nbsp;</p><p>edit: Of course the affected magnets are ruined, but the LHC as a whole is just fine. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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baulten

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The impression I get is that there is not a lot of damage but that the fix is just time consuming.&nbsp;edit: Of course the affected magnets are ruined, but the LHC as a whole is just fine. <br /> Posted by centsworth_II</DIV></p><p>I guess I meant more "Hopefully they are overestimating the time it will take" than the damage.&nbsp; I know it's just a few magnets and a small portion of the whole device, but it's still disappointing. </p>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I guess I meant more "Hopefully they are overestimating the time it will take" than the damage.&nbsp; I know it's just a few magnets and a small portion of the whole device, but it's still disappointing. <br /> Posted by baulten</DIV></p><p>No such luck...&nbsp; I had a feeling this might happen.&nbsp; Like someone mentioned in the comments on the article... Remember the Hubble Space Telescope?&nbsp; How did that turn out for us.&nbsp; Sometimes these breakdowns can actually turn into long term benefits.&nbsp; Maybe I'm just an eternal optimist.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/23/really-bad-news-lhc-to-be-switched-off-until-spring-2009/</p><h2>Really Bad News: LHC to be Switched Off Until Spring 2009</h2> <p>Written by Ian O'Neill</p> <div id="attachment_13384" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width:260px"><img class="size-thumbnail wp-image-13384" src="http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/lhc_welding_700.thumbnail.jpg" alt="It looks like some significant repairs will need to be made to the LHC before a re-start attempt (CERN)" width="250" height="162" /><p class="wp-caption-text">It looks like some significant repairs will need to be made to the LHC before a re-start attempt (CERN)</p></div>First there was a glitch with one of the huge 30-tonne transformers causing a delay of a few days, then a quench leaked a tonne of helium coolant into one of the tunnels, forcing a two-month shutdown while repairs could be made. <p><em>Brace yourselves for some more bad news</em>. </p><p> In a statement released by CERN today, due to an obligatory maintenance period, the LHC will have to remain off-line until <em>late March or early April 2009</em>. Problems with an experiment as huge as the worlds biggest particle accelerator can be expected, but this will be a costly delay and a psychological setback after the initial excitement of the first particle circulation on October 10th. <em>The elusive Higgs Boson will have to wait a few more months</em>&hellip;</p><p> I had a nagging feeling over the weekend after writing about the LHC quench and the two month delay in operations - <em>what if the delay is longer than we think?</em> The severe damage was caused by faulty wiring between two supercooled electromagnets when scientists carried out electrical tests at the facility Friday morning, resulting in a helium leak between sections 3-4 of the 27 km (17 mile) accelerator ring. Although no one was injured, the emergency services had to be called and the electromagnets heated up well beyond operational temperatures. Initial reports suggested experiments would be put back until the end of the year, but now it would seem the LHC won't accelerate particles again until spring 2009. </p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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<p><br />http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR10.08E.html</p><p>Geneva, 23 September 2008. Investigations at CERN<sup>1</sup> following a large helium leak into sector 3-4 of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) tunnel have indicated that the most likely cause of the incident was a faulty electrical connection between two of the accelerator&rsquo;s magnets. Before a full understanding of the incident can be established, however, the sector has to be brought to room temperature and the magnets involved opened up for inspection.&nbsp; This will take &nbsp;three to four weeks. Full details of this investigation will be made available once it is complete. </p><p><em>&ldquo;Coming immediately after the very successful start of LHC operation on 10 September, this is undoubtedly a psychological blow,&rdquo;</em> said CERN Director General Robert Aymar. <em>&ldquo;Nevertheless, the success of the LHC&rsquo;s first operation with beam is testimony to years of painstaking preparation and the skill of the teams involved in building and running CERN&rsquo;s accelerator complex. I have no doubt that we will overcome this setback with the same degree of rigour and application.&rdquo;</em></p><p>The time necessary for the investigation and repairs precludes a restart before CERN&rsquo;s obligatory winter maintenance period, bringing the date for restart of the accelerator complex to early spring 2009. LHC beams will then follow.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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neuvik

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Get ready for the Large Hadron Rap; http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM:-) <br />Posted by qzzq</DIV><br /><br />Ahaha, thats cool, but I tihnk I gotta wait for some CERN heavy metal. hehe <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">I don't think I'm alone when I say, "I hope more planets fall under the ruthless domination of Earth!"</font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff">SDC Boards: Power by PLuck - Ph**king Luck</font></p> </div>
 
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a_lost_packet_

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...Really Bad News: LHC to be Switched Off Until Spring 2009 ...Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>/cry</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>
 
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centsworth_II

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<p>Let's not go crazy.&nbsp; All this means is we miss the preview.&nbsp; Without this accident, at most there would have been a couple weeks or a month of data collected at 2/3 power.&nbsp; A sneak preview, that's all.&nbsp; Then the collider would have been shut down for the winter.&nbsp; Now, they have all winter, when the collider would not have been operational anyway, to analyse and fix the damage.&nbsp; </p><p>In the spring, normal operations can begin and full power can be achieved not much later than it would have been without this incident.&nbsp; Now, if this sort of thing happens again next year.... then I'll start worrying. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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centsworth_II

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<p>If all goes well, we may have missed the preview, but the main event -- collisions at full power -- may come sooner than originally planned.&nbsp; IF all goes well.&nbsp; I hope this was an isolated event and not a sign of things to come. </p><p><font color="#800000">"Yesterday, the CERN Director-General spoke to the laboratory about the present and future of the laboratory. He said.... Maintenance of infrastructure previously scheduled for the winter shutdown will instead start on Monday, October 6.&nbsp; This means that an effort is being made to re-start the accelerator complex in April instead of the previously scheduled June.&nbsp; That is good news for getting collisions sooner rather than later in 2009.&nbsp; But presumably everything depends on repairs being finished in the LHC."</font> http://blogs.uslhc.us/?p=401</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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derekmcd

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If all goes well, we may have missed the preview, but the main event -- collisions at full power -- may come sooner than originally planned.&nbsp; IF all goes well.&nbsp; I hope this was an isolated event and not a sign of things to come. "Yesterday, the CERN Director-General spoke to the laboratory about the present and future of the laboratory. He said.... Maintenance of infrastructure previously scheduled for the winter shutdown will instead start on Monday, October 6.&nbsp; This means that an effort is being made to re-start the accelerator complex in April instead of the previously scheduled June.&nbsp; That is good news for getting collisions sooner rather than later in 2009.&nbsp; But presumably everything depends on repairs being finished in the LHC." http://blogs.uslhc.us/?p=401 <br /> Posted by centsworth_II</DIV></p><p>I read that it was as simple as a crappy soldering job... frickin amazing.&nbsp; I say fix it and fire it up... let the Swiss freeze during the winter.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
 
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centsworth_II

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<font color="#333399"><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>... let the Swiss freeze during the winter.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV><br /></font>I don't know if the winter electric problem is one of availability or just that it costs too darn much.&nbsp; <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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neuvik

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I read that it was as simple as a crappy soldering job... frickin amazing.&nbsp; I say fix it and fire it up... let the Swiss freeze during the winter.&nbsp; <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV><br /><br />Those Swiss technicians!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hey isn't this an episode from Futurama? (from the makers of the Simpsons.)&nbsp; The professor buys a Swiss made Super collider, it blows up and he remarks to his crew that his super collider, super exploded, so they had to return it for a whobbely CD rack and some meatballs or something?&nbsp; <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">I don't think I'm alone when I say, "I hope more planets fall under the ruthless domination of Earth!"</font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff">SDC Boards: Power by PLuck - Ph**king Luck</font></p> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't know if the winter electric problem is one of availability or just that it costs too darn much.&nbsp; <br />Posted by centsworth_II</DIV><br /><br />I read that it was the cost. The juice is just too expensive. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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centsworth_II

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<font color="#000080"><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I read that it was the cost. The juice is just too expensive. <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></font><br />I did read one physicist blogger (somewhere) who said they shut down so the village inhabitants wouldn't freeze, but I think he was joking.&nbsp; The thing is, even if power could be found for CERN in the winter, CERN's demand would probably push the cost up even higher (maybe much higher) than the normal winter increase. In that case, maybe some people would freeze, because they couldn't afford the inflated heating costs. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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arkady

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<span style="font-size:16px" class="Apple-style-span"><h2 style="color:#18245c;font-size:150%;font-weight:normal;margin-top:0px;padding-top:0px"><span style="color:#000000;font-size:16px" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:13px" class="Apple-style-span">From official site:<span style="white-space:pre" class="Apple-tab-span"> </span>(see link in OP, or just google CERN)</span>&nbsp;</span></h2><p>&nbsp;</p><p>CERN releases analysis of LHC incident</p><div class="phrwithcaption" style="border:1pxsolid#999999;padding:2px;width:300px;max-width:354px;background-color:#ffffff;margin-left:18px;margin-bottom:12px;margin-top:12px;font-size:80%;color:#555555"><img src="http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/Images/PR14.08.jpg" border="0" alt="A diagram showing the type of electrical connection in question" width="300" /><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%">Investigations have shown that a faulty electrical connection between two magnets (shown in red) was the cause of the incident in sector 3-4 of the LHC on 19 September.</p></div><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%">Geneva, 16 October 2008. Investigations at CERN<sup>1</sup>&nbsp;following a large helium leak into sector 3-4 of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) tunnel have confirmed that cause of the incident was a faulty electrical connection between two of the accelerator&rsquo;s magnets. This resulted in mechanical damage and release of helium from the magnet cold mass into the tunnel.</p><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%">Proper safety procedures were in force, the safety systems performed as expected, and no one was put at risk. Sufficient spare components are in hand to ensure that the LHC is able to restart in 2009, and measures to prevent a similar incident in the future are being put in place.</p><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%"><em>&ldquo;This incident was unforeseen,&rdquo;&nbsp;</em>said CERN Director General Robert Aymar,<em>&nbsp;&ldquo;but I am now confident that we can make the necessary repairs, ensure that a similar incident can not happen in the future and move forward to achieving our research objectives.&rdquo;</em></p><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%">&nbsp;</p><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%">A more detailed summary follows for those interested.&nbsp;</p><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%">&nbsp;</p><p style="font-size:90%;line-height:130%">&nbsp;</p></span> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>
 
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a_lost_packet_

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<p>I guess the good news is that it wasn't a design flaw.&nbsp; No massive re-engineering will be necessary, just some replacement parts and manpower.</p><p>I wonder if modifications or additional components will be considered at a later date to take advantage of the lesson's learned here?&nbsp; I'm sure, if they felt it warranted, they'd already be delaying the startup further.&nbsp; But, it's possible they've already come up with some new ideas in improving performance and mitigating flaws in future designs or upgrades.</p><p>Then again, you can't engineer forever.&nbsp; Sometimes, you just have to go ahead and put it into operation no matter how many additional bells & whistles you can think up.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>
 
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arkady

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sometimes, you just have to go ahead and put it into operation no matter how many additional bells & whistles you can think up.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV></p><p>Hehe, yes. Better is the enemy of good enough.</p><p>&nbsp;</p>Remind's me of a passage in Squyre's "Roving Mars" ...<p>"The problem when engineers and scientists have to work together is that 'good enough' is anathema to a scientist. There's no such thing as 'good enough' when what you're after is the truth. So on every space project, there is a tension: the idealistic, impractical scientists against the stubborn, practical engineers"</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>
 
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lildreamer

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>"The repairs could be completed by May or June. The LHC could be restarted by June 2009 at the earliest."So it looks like we have longer to wait than next spring. <br />Posted by centsworth_II</DIV><br /><br />or even longer still now maybe summer of 2009 or early 2010...</p><p>here's another link to a pdf from the site that explains with greater detail what happened - some nice pics embedded in the pdf </p><p>LINK</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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centsworth_II

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<p><font color="#333399"><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>or even longer still now maybe summer of 2009 or early 2010...<br /> Posted by lildreamer</DIV><br /></font></p><p>&nbsp;A blogger over at US/LHC Blogs is likewise not optimistic about the startup date:</p><p><font color="#800000">"...the date now being cited by the CERN Press Office for the restart of the LHC is early summer.&nbsp; Unfortunately, there are two reasons why I&rsquo;m personally not inclined to take this new estimate too seriously.</font> </p><p><font color="#800000">First, CERN has an increasingly long history of being over-optimistic on LHC start-up times....&nbsp; <br /></font></p> <font color="#800000">Second, this new announcement is not accompanied by a new detailed schedule....&nbsp; It&rsquo;s very possible that CERN doesn&rsquo;t yet have all the information about what repairs will be necessary, but then why the new announcement?"</font> -- <font color="#800000">Seth Zenz</font><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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