LHC - Could it be put on "hold" due to lawsuit?

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;How long will it be before the lawers can sort out who caused this onehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7366597.stm <br /> Posted by saul</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Cosmic lawyers chasing galaxies instead of ambulances... I can see that happening.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<h1 class="articleHeadline">LHC set for July start up<br /></h1> <div class="articleThumbnailCenter">If all goes well, the LHC should be online in July</div><p><em>Engineers at CERN are making the final touches to the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) &mdash; the biggest experiment in particle physics &mdash; and expect to have it running in the first half of July. Although the start-up schedule of the European particle accelerator has slipped by over a month since the last official announcement, there appear to be only minor problems left to resolve. </em></p><p><em>&ldquo;It has been some time since we&rsquo;ve been in this kind of position with this kind of research facility,&rdquo; says James Gillies, a spokesman for CERN. &ldquo;There&rsquo;s real confidence that we&rsquo;ll be collecting new data this year. It&rsquo;s a very big time for us.&rdquo; </em></p><p><em>When all is done and dusted, the LHC will have cost around $6.3bn to build. Some 6000 superconducting magnets will whip proton beams in opposite directions around a 27&nbsp;km-long ring and smash them together at energies bordering on 14&nbsp;TeV. The impacts will generate a hoard of new particles, possibly including the highly anticipated Higgs particle and so-called supersymmetric particles. But regardless of what is or is not detected, it is almost certain that the LHC will provide a window onto new physics. </em></p><p><em>Until recently, the official line from CERN was that the first proton beams would be injected into the ring in May, despite status reports from the LHC website suggesting otherwise. According to Gillies, previous problems have now compelled CERN to set back the start up to the first half of July. An official date will be announced sometime after mid-June, the earliest time that all the magnets can be cooled to their operating temperature of below 2&nbsp;K. </em></p><blockquote><em> There&rsquo;s real confidence that we&rsquo;ll be collecting new data this year. It&rsquo;s a very big time for us <cite>James Gillies, CERN spokesman</cite></em> </blockquote> <h3><em>Latent problems</em></h3> <p><em>The main problem that has dogged the LHC start-up schedule of late erupted with a bang this time last year, when one of the &ldquo;quadrupole&rdquo; magnets used to focus and manipulate the proton beams failed during preliminary tests. Fermilab, the US laboratory who manufactured the magnets, was quick to accept responsibility, but it soon became apparent that all similar magnets would have to be redesigned and replaced. CERN is still reeling from this overhaul, having had to delay the cooling of magnets and skip the low-energy test runs that were due to take place before winter. </em></p><p><em>There have since been other, less serious problems. Towards the end of last year CERN found that certain &ldquo;copper fingers&rdquo; used to ensure electrical continuity between magnets had buckled when the magnets were warmed up. Presently, LHC engineers are having a few difficulties with leaky plumbing of liquid helium, which is used to cool the magnets. &ldquo;Superfluid helium has no viscosity, so it can find any cracks,&rdquo; explains Gillies. </em></p><p><em>Even though proton beams will not enter the LHC before July, by May 21 the beams will be running through two of CERN&rsquo;s existing particle accelerators, which are serving as preliminary accelerator stages. The Proton Synchrotron, built in the late 1950s, will speed the protons up to 25&nbsp;GeV and feed into the Super Proton Synchrotron, built in the 1970s, to get them up to 450&nbsp;GeV. </em></p><p>{snip}</p><p>Rest of article here:</p><p>http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/33600</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[lildreamer]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Well, it was bound to happen.&nbsp; It has.&nbsp; Someone has filed a lawsuit requesting a safety review for the LHC which is due to begin answering extremely important questions by blasting particles to bits later this year.DOOMSDAY FEARS SPARK LAWSUIT...Last Friday, Wagner and another critic of the LHC's safety measures, Luis Sancho, filed a lawsuit in Hawaii's U.S. District Court. The suit&nbsp;calls on the U.S. Department of Energy, Fermilab, the National Science Foundation and CERN to&nbsp;ease up on their LHC preparations for several months while the collider's safety was reassessed. "We're going to need a minimum of four months to review whatever they're putting out," Wagner told me on Monday. The suit seeks a temporary restraining order that would put the LHC on hold, pending the release and review of an updated CERN safety assessment. It also calls on the U.S. government to do a full environmental review addressing the LHC project, including the debate over the doomsday scenario...."http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/27/823924.aspx&nbsp;&nbsp;So, are we going to see this escalate into a serious delay for the LHC?&nbsp; After all, this isn't a Cease and Desist type of suit - It's a request for a safety review. (fyi I haven't read the actual suit.)&nbsp; It's possible that such a request could be granted given the allegations, admittedly far-fetched, and the responsibilty the Court may feel for public safety. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br />Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>BUMP </p><p>didn't want to start a new thread so I thought I bump this one</p><p>- found an interesting video about CERN&nbsp;on Znet Video</p><h1><font size="1">CERN demos giant 3D digital camera</font></h1><h2><font size="1">Java apps used to track data for Atlas detector</font></h2><p><font size="1">At the JavaOne conference in San Francisco, Derek Mathieson, project leader for the world's largest particle physics laboratory, CERN, shows off the Atlas detector, a six story high, 100-megapixel camera with 100 million data channels. Mathieson explains how the detector uses open-source Java applications to collect data and how grid computing allows the data to be processed.</font></p><p>http://news.zdnet.com/2422-13568_22-201133.html?tag=nefd.media</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p>Thanks for that. &nbsp;</p><p>There is nothing about this this whole project that is NOT impressive.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<div class="textMedBlackBold"><h1><font size="3">Big-bang machine&rsquo;s battle plan set</font></h1><h2><font size="2">Scientists to start up particle collider in July; legal date comes in June</font></h2>By Alan Boyle</div><div class="textMedBlack">Science editor</div><div class="textMedBlack">MSNBC</div><span>updated <span class="time">5:45 p.m. CT,</span> <span class="date">Tues., May. 20, 2008</span></span><p>&nbsp;</p><p><em>The schedule is taking shape for the startup of the world&rsquo;s biggest particle-smasher &mdash; and for the lawsuit seeking to shut it down.</em></p><p class="textBodyBlack"><em>The plaintiffs in that lawsuit have served the federal government with a summons, and Justice Department lawyers are due to respond by June 24. One of the other parties in the case, Europe&rsquo;s CERN particle-physics center, is supposed to be served this week in Switzerland, according to Walter Wagner, one of the plaintiffs.</em></p><p class="textBodyBlack"><em>CERN's Large Hadron Collider is gearing up to slam protons together at energies that have not yet been studied on Earth. The peak energy of 14 trillion electron volts approaches levels seen in the first microseconds after the big bang - which is why the collider has been nicknamed the &ldquo;Big Bang Machine.&rdquo;</em></p><p>{snip}</p><p><strong><strong>First beams in July?</strong></strong><em><strong><strong><br /></strong></strong>Meanwhile, CERN&rsquo;s startup schedule is coming into better focus as well: The LHC team is due to start cooling down the last sectors of the collider&rsquo;s beamline to near absolute zero on Wednesday, with the expectation that cooldown will be complete by mid-June, Gillies said. That would clear the way for a final round of equipment testing, with the first attempt to inject proton beams into the collider &ldquo;likely to be in the second half of July,&rdquo; he said.</em></p><p class="textBodyBlack">&nbsp;</p><p><em>The exact date would be set four to six weeks in advance &mdash; leaving enough time to plan a big media event around the first beam injection. Gillies said the first injection will provide a convenient hook for coverage, including a live BBC broadcast of the turn-on around 9:30 a.m. CET (3:30 a.m. ET) on the appointed day. However, he stressed that the beam injection was just one step in a months-long commissioning process.</em></p><p class="textBodyBlack"><em>&ldquo;It&rsquo;s not like launching a space shuttle or anything like that,&rdquo; Gillies said. </em></p><p class="textBodyBlack"><em>The first low-power proton collisions would come later in the summer or fall, leading up to a VIP ceremony on Oct. 21. The collider won&rsquo;t reach its full power until next year, after CERN&rsquo;s winter break. Any legal questions should be resolved by the time the Large Hadron Collider gets anywhere close to post-big-bang energies. At least that&rsquo;s what the Justice Department and CERN would expect.</em></p><p class="textBodyBlack">{snip}</p><p class="textBodyBlack">Rest of story here:&nbsp;</p><p>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24735984/</p><p>At least they finally got the ball rolling.&nbsp; Here's hoping for no more setbacks. </p><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<p>Although a lawsuit may not shut the LHC down, apparently a lack of electricity will, on a yearly basis.&nbsp; They probably need to shut down on occasion anyway for maintenance, but I thought it was interesting that the collider is apparently stretching the limit of electricity production of the region.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><font size="2" color="#333333"><strong><font size="3"><font size="2">"....we use about 30 per cent of the electricity demand of the Canton of Geneva....The Swiss Grid alone can't supply all the electricity we need; we actually get most of it from France...." </font></font><br />http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/306218/Bottling+the+big+bang.htm</strong> </font></p><p>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><h2><font size="2">News From CERN and Fermilab&nbsp; </font></h2><p><font size="2">http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=691</font><strong><font size="2" color="#333333">"...The LHC has to have a winter shutdown so that the residents of Geneva don&rsquo;t freeze to death, and that will start in late November...."</font></strong></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<p>Followup Article:</p><p class="textBodyBlack"><strong>REPORT RULES OUT SUBATOMIC DOOMSDAY&nbsp; </strong></p><p class="textBodyBlack"><em>" Europe's CERN particle-physics lab has issued its long-awaited report on safety issues surrounding the Large Hadron Collider, the world's biggest and most expensive atom-smasher. Some have feared that when the collider reaches full power, sometime next year, it might create microscopic black holes or other exotic phenomena that could endanger Earth. The new report, like earlier safety studies, rules out the possibility of global danger.</em></p> <p><em>Critics of the collider are pursuing a federal lawsuit challenging the safety claims - and they're likely to continue the doomsday debate even in the wake of this report....." </em></p><p>http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/20/1158097.aspx </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Followup Article:REPORT RULES OUT SUBATOMIC DOOMSDAY&nbsp; " Europe's CERN particle-physics lab has issued its long-awaited report on safety issues surrounding the Large Hadron Collider, the world's biggest and most expensive atom-smasher. Some have feared that when the collider reaches full power, sometime next year, it might create microscopic black holes or other exotic phenomena that could endanger Earth. The new report, like earlier safety studies, rules out the possibility of global danger. Critics of the collider are pursuing a federal lawsuit challenging the safety claims - and they're likely to continue the doomsday debate even in the wake of this report....." http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/20/1158097.aspx <br /> Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV></p><p>Here's the actual pdf of their most recent report:</p><p>http://cern.ch/lsag/LSAG-Report.pdf</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<p>News from the front lines: </p><p><font color="#000080">"The most feared/longed for date on ATLAS right now is August 11th. This is the day where we have to be out of the cavern.... So will ATLAS be ready? I find that I am asked this question more and more with each passing day. And the answer is&hellip;. Yes....&nbsp; Not that we don&rsquo;t have things to still work on (I mean it is friday night and I am yet again still in the control room) but we are sitting pretty. And that is a really, really good feeling.</font></p> <p><font color="#000080">So beam-people. Is the beam ready yet?</font></p> <p><font color="#000080">How about now?"</font></p>http://uslhc.us/blogs/?p=263 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>News from the front lines: "The most feared/longed for date on ATLAS right now is August 11th. This is the day where we have to be out of the cavern.... So will ATLAS be ready? I find that I am asked this question more and more with each passing day. And the answer is&hellip;. Yes....&nbsp; Not that we don&rsquo;t have things to still work on (I mean it is friday night and I am yet again still in the control room) but we are sitting pretty. And that is a really, really good feeling. So beam-people. Is the beam ready yet? How about now?"http://uslhc.us/blogs/?p=263 <br /> Posted by centsworth_II</DIV></p><p>I'm excited.&nbsp; Not really sure what to expect or what they think they will really accomplish, but for 6 billion, I'm hoping for something significant that us average joe's can appreciate.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[royalcolin]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm excited.&nbsp; Not really sure what to expect or what they think they will really accomplish, but for 6 billion, I'm hoping for something significant that us average joe's can appreciate. <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>Prior to that I hope all the scientists involved in it give the world a 100 percent "clean bill of health" and an assurance that its absolutely safe. This will to some extent silence the sceptics.<br /></p>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Prior to that I hope all the scientists involved in it give the world a 100 percent "clean bill of health" and an assurance that its absolutely safe. This will to some extent silence the sceptics. <br /> Posted by royalcolin</DIV></p><p>The assurance has already been given... a few times.&nbsp; Unfortunately, there will always be skeptics that are only skeptical due to lack of understanding.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[mickeyl]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Nothing here but the rantings of a publicity hound. I just pray the judge is not a Clinton appointee. It would prevent US entities from continuing their preparations. The doomsday scenario makes great copy but it is demonstrably false. Every day particles with an energy 100 million times larger than what the LHC can make hit the upper atmosphere.&nbsp; <br />Posted by billslugg</DIV></p><p><font size="3">This last sentence is patently incorrect and false.&nbsp;<br /><br /></font></p>

 

[centsworth_II]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This last sentence is patently incorrect and false.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by mickeyl</DIV></p><p>If the energy level of cosmic rays is off in that post, the rational for LHC safety is not. </p><h2><font color="#333399"><u><font size="2">The safety of the LHC</font></u></font></h2><p><font size="2" color="#000080">"The LHC, like other particle accelerators, recreates the natural phenomena of cosmic rays under controlled laboratory conditions.... Cosmic rays are particles produced in outer space, some of which are accelerated to energies far exceeding those of the LHC....Over the past billions of years, Nature has already generated on Earth as many collisions as about a million LHC experiments &ndash; and the planet still exists."&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm excited.&nbsp; Not really sure what to expect or what they think they will really accomplish, but for 6 billion, I'm hoping for something significant that us average joe's can appreciate. <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV><br /><br />So am I. It's our next step toward understanding the universe.</p><p>Whether the average Joe can appreciate it seems unlikely, though. But we will.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p>The latest Science News has a nice article on the LHC, some of the key experiments and what it might mean to physics.</p><p><br />http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/33840/title/E(14_trillion_eV_)%3Dm(%3F)c(close_to_the_speed_of_light_)_squared</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This last sentence is patently incorrect and false.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by mickeyl</DIV></p><p>You're fairly new here, but it is common courtesy that if you are going to consider someone's claim to be incorrect or false, you should provide a source or, at the very least, provide a little commentary for why you consider those claims false.</p><p>With that said, however;&nbsp; Cosmic particles have been detected up to 10^20 eV while the particle accelerators can produce particle with energies in the TeV range or 10^12 eV.&nbsp; This is, precisely, 100 million times.</p><p>http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/28675</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>So, your claim that his claim is false, is, well.... false.&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So am I. It's our next step toward understanding the universe.Whether the average Joe can appreciate it seems unlikely, though. But we will. <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>I guess what I'm talking about in the way of significance and the average joe is that they are still finding new particles at aging facilities.&nbsp; Just recently there was a new one:</p><p>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080310131525.htm</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>To a particle physicist, this might be exciting, but it's not exactly gonna make headlines.&nbsp; I'd love to see the LHC make headlines with their discoveries.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I guess what I'm talking about in the way of significance and the average joe is that they are still finding new particles at aging facilities.&nbsp; Just recently there was a new one:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080310131525.htmTo a particle physicist, this might be exciting, but it's not exactly gonna make headlines.&nbsp; I'd love to see the LHC make headlines with their discoveries.&nbsp; <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>I don't really care about the headlines.&nbsp; I would just like to see it make a Higgs boson.&nbsp; I know that would be pretty bland to the particle physicists, and they will probably do better, but&nbsp;I would be happy with just one little ol' Higgs.</p><p>Failing that I would like to see&nbsp;the high energy linear chicken accelerator (used to test windscreens on fighter aircraft) revived and used to launch the idiotic lawyers that initiated the lawsuit that started this thread.&nbsp; Get two of them and see what happens in a head-on lawyer scattering experiment.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<p>&nbsp;</p><p>The&nbsp; US/LHC Blogs, by a group of US scientists, is a great way to follow the progress of the LHC.&nbsp;</p><h2 class="post-title"><font size="3">If you haven&rsquo;t heard it already</font></h2><p><font size="2" color="#333399">"A month ago, I remember seeing a lot of red on the</font><font size="2" color="#333399"> </font><font size="2" color="#333399">LHC cooldown status</font><font size="2" color="#333399">, but now it is all BLEU. Almost all sectors except for 7-8 & 8-1 are now close to the 1.9 K target and the two sectors are around 20 K. Very impressive progress, almost no big hiccups. So the beam is coming&hellip;</font></p> <p><font size="2" color="#333399">The first-first-first beam in the LHC is anticipated in the first week of August in sector 2-3!!! But, hardware commissioning is not finished in this sector, so clock is ticking faster for some than others&hellip; I mean people working underneath. Quite ambitious program for two days and first timers, btw the beam gets injected at point 2 and stopped by collimators before point 3. Don&rsquo;t expects collisions yet, lot more hardware commissioning still to go." </font><font size="2">http://uslhc.us/blogs/</font></p><p><br /> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/15/42941fb6-c5c6-4a14-8f6e-d28cb44e4815.Medium.jpg" alt="" /><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mickeyl]

<p><font size="2">Derek:&nbsp; Oops you're correct.&nbsp; I scanned the postings quickly.&nbsp; The posting referred to the MeV of a particle.&nbsp; I was thinking of the energy released when two protons collide near the "speed of light"; supposedly releasing many particles.&nbsp; I believe that particles observed during the collision of two protons, are simply momentary fragments of created mass.&nbsp; They exist for nanoseconds, as they are being converted back into energy; simply being pieces of decaying protons (unworthy of a name).&nbsp; Much as a soap bubble pops into pieces of soap-bubble and then vanish, when they pop.&nbsp; Particle physists must have a name for everything they observe, however insignificant it may be.</font></p>

 

[centsworth_II]

<p><font color="#333399"><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>....I believe that particles observed during the collision of two protons, are simply momentary fragments of created mass.&nbsp; They exist for nanoseconds, as they are being converted back into energy; simply being pieces of decaying protons&nbsp; -- Posted by mickeyl</DIV></font></p><p>As I understand it, the energy of the collision produces new particles that were not present in the original protons.&nbsp; So 'simply&nbsp; pieces of decaying&nbsp; -- or broken up -- protons' would not be a good way of describing the products of a collision.&nbsp; 'Momentary created mass' on the other hand would be a good description.</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mickeyl]

<p><font size="2">centsworth, you are correct I was saying new particles were not being created.&nbsp; They may be created in the minds of the scientists at the lhc.&nbsp; Observing the destruction of a proton does not indicate any secret proton structure, only fragments of destroyed mass.&nbsp; Somewhat like an ice cube dropped on a hot summer sidewalk, that shatters into many pieces then evaporates and disappears.&nbsp; Just like CERN, the LHC will be worthless.</font></p>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>centsworth, you are correct I was saying new particles were not being created.&nbsp; They may be created in the minds of the scientists at the lhc.&nbsp; Observing the destruction of a proton does not indicate any secret proton structure, only fragments of destroyed mass.&nbsp; Somewhat like an ice cube dropped on a hot summer sidewalk, that shatters into many pieces then evaporates and disappears.&nbsp; Just like CERN, the LHC will be worthless. <br />Posted by mickeyl</DIV><br /><br />Wow, Your statement is either that of a troll, or someone who doesn't know the first thing about the Standard Model of Particle Physics. Since this is a Physics forum, I'd siggest some background reading. Your ice cube analogy, unlike CERN and LHC, is pretty worthless. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>centsworth, you are correct I was saying new particles were not being created.&nbsp; They may be created in the minds of the scientists at the lhc.&nbsp; Observing the destruction of a proton does not indicate any secret proton structure, only fragments of destroyed mass.&nbsp; Somewhat like an ice cube dropped on a hot summer sidewalk, that shatters into many pieces then evaporates and disappears.&nbsp; Just like CERN, the LHC will be worthless. <br /> Posted by mickeyl</DIV></p><p>Wow... not even sure what to say here.&nbsp; Maybe you should study some Feynman diagrams.&nbsp; Fragments of destroyed mass?&nbsp; This is about as inaccurate a statement as one can make about particle collisions.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>