Long manned trips on the surface of the Moon or Mars

[willpittenger]

On longer trips (longer than can be accommodated by the suits) across the surface of the Moon or Mars, we won't be able to use Apollo-style unpressurized rovers. Rather, I see us using pressurized rovers. Please use this thread to describe how you would design your rover. What all would be inside and on the exterior? (The latter might include things like digging equipment that can be operated from inside.) How would occupants get in and out? How would it dock with landers and/or stationary habitats? Or would you require spacewalks to reach those objects? Also, please state if your rover is for the Moon or Mars.<br /><br />Please assume that a Martian mission would use technology that is at least 20 years into the future. I would prefer everyone stated how far into the future they thought their rover could be built and sent to the appropriate place. Rovers made with on-site materials get bonus points. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[scottb50]

I've thought about this and think the best option is a self contained vehicle that docks to a fixed Station. Crews would work in shirt-sleeve environments, driving to where work is to be done and using remotely operated equipment to do what needs to be done.<br /><br />As for a time line I don't see it any greater then that for a new generation of suits that don't exist today anyway.<br /><br />With the level of outside exploration needed to be done sending people out in Suits and trying to keep contamination out of the facility will be a major consideration. Samples could be brought in, under controlled conditions, but actual boots on the ground, while more dramatic add a lot of problems.<br /><br />What I see is a two crew vehicle that can provides mobility and is small enough and maneuverable enough to do anything that could be done in a Space Suit and bring back samples. <br /><br />As far as a time line I don't see it taking any longer than the suits that would be needed and don't exist now either. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I would have to insist that the rover has a way to, as you put it, put "actual boots on the ground." Why? Suppose you want a sample from between to large rocks where the rover can't be maneuvered safely to. Unless you have a really long and flexible retrieval arm, someone will have to get out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[scottb50]

Then you get out and bring dirt back in with you. Eventually there will be so much dust and dirt inside it will become a problem.<br /><br />If you have an arm with a good reach and the ability to use any number of utensils with it you can pick up anything. One advantage having people is you could go back and build a tool you might find a need for.<br /><br />I think contamination will be one of the biggest problems both on the Moon and Mars and also NEO's. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

The mini rover I featured in my graphic novel which allows short distance excursions of about a 10-15 mile radius of the base. In the image, the rover has just arrived at the KSC mars base processing facility.<br /><br />I had a longer version planned and even began work on it in the computer but never got to use it in the graphic novel. The two guys looking at the rover are a technician and QC. The year is 2022 IIRC and two people can sit suited just behind the glass bubbled hatch. It's pretty cramped but the way my mars base concept was laid out, I couldn't work a bigger rover in on the initial base missions. This did make the story seem more realistic in the sense of showing the problems that have to be dealt with when plans become reality.<br /><br />The tall blue and white structures just behind the rover are two of the mars bases in various stages of processing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">I've thought about this and think the best option is a self contained vehicle that docks to a fixed Station. Crews would work in shirt-sleeve environments, driving to where work is to be done and using remotely operated equipment to do what needs to be done.</font><br /><br />What would be the point in manned missions if we end up exclusively using robots to do the work? That seems counterintuitive to a manned mission to me.<br /><br />A robot doesn't care if the operator is 10 meters away or 30 million miles away.<br /><br />Not to mention the added expense (and mass) of a pressurized vehicle.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">With the level of outside exploration needed to be done sending people out in Suits and trying to keep contamination out of the facility will be a major consideration.</font><br /><br />That's definitely a major consideration. It can be overcome by having a "mud room" as part of any habitat, though.<br /><br />Really, all were worried about is the "dust". Anything picked up by spacesuits is going to be anaerobic. That's not to say that the dust itself couldn't be toxic or damaging to internal systems of the habitat, however.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[thinice]

<i>A robot doesn't care if the operator is 10 meters away or 30 million miles away. </i><br />Being 30 million miles away, it doesn't care 2.5 minites later. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[scottb50]

That's not to say that the dust itself couldn't be toxic or damaging to internal systems of the habitat, however...<br /><br />The red color on Mars has a simple answer and that answer is a very good conductor or electricity.<br /><br />I never said anything about robots anyway. What I had in mind was closer to the submersibles used today. Manned with varius grappling and scooping attachments that can be operated by the users.<br /><br />It can be overcome by having a "mud room" as part of any habitat, though....<br /><br />To have a mud room would take a lot of water. One area I have considered is cleaning the area between the hatches after docking, water or air would work, but both would be lost. That could be a considerable amount of either pretty quick. Expand that to a mud room and it quickly gets unreasonable. <br /><br />Anything picked up by spacesuits is going to be anaerobic....<br /><br />Then why are they wasting so much time and money on finding life on Mars? I happen to agree with you, but there are a lot more problems then encountering lifeforms. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacefire]

wouldn't a legged rover be a better alternative?<br /><br />it seems there are so many advances being currently made in the field of legged robots that the technology could soon evolve to having large vehicles drive that way.<br /><br />One good thing about the legged contraption is that you can seal the entire thing in a flexible membrane that would not allow any dust to penetrated. That is impossible for wheeled vehicle, where dust can get between the shaft and the lugs <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

One solution to the dust problem is to use rear-entry space suits that "dock" to the outside of rover. No material actually enters the habitat.<br /><br />Other dust mitigation techniques are currently a high priority at NASA. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[Huntster]

Indeed, the first thing I thought of when reading this discussion was the mechs from BattleTech. Sure, that type of technology is way beyond what we'd be capable of in the near-term, but it does raise questions as to feasibility for piloted walkers of any kind.. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

One solution might be something we could borrow from Bob Ballard. When Alvin visited Titanic for the first time, Ballard arranged for it to carry a unmanned mini-sub called Jason Jr. Alvin set down on the deck while Jason Jr. went inside the Grand Staircase and other areas. Have the main manned rover carry something like Sojourner. In fact, such small rovers might be specialized. You would carry two or three each equipped differently. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I should note that 2.5 seconds can seem like a long time. I know the Soviets lost a lunar rover due to a mishap that might have been avoidable with a faster reaction rate. In another post on this thread, I suggested small rovers controlled from the main manned one. That would put the small rovers close enough the reaction time would be measured in milliseconds. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Did you come up with images showing the rest of the rover? If not, could you use something like Google SketchUp (which probably renders faster than your normal tools) to create new ones? SketchUp doesn't understand light sources or reflectivity without help, but it does have opacity support. It also renders nearly at real-time and can do movies. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>One solution to the dust problem is to use rear-entry space suits that "dock" to the outside of rover. No material actually enters the habitat.<br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Neat idea, but complicated. Shucks they should have a room where they vacumm themselves and the suits off. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

Nice , Scottb50.<br /><br />I'd like to add something. How about adding a couple of robotic arms and a well with a bubble window so an astronaut can see up close the rocks and pick up interesting rocks on the fly depositing them in bucket like containters, like scientific submersibles do. Then when they find and interesting area they can don the space suits and go out and explore. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Some of the other posts have brought up the maintenance issue. The first few missions will probably settle for disposable single mission rovers like Apollo used. However, as we start to create permanently manned bases, we will need rovers can can be serviced. How do we do that?<br /><ul type="square"><li>At first, rovers will have to be serviced in the local environment. On the Moon, that would be a vacuum. How do astronauts in heavy spacesuits with awkward gloves handle the equivalent of a lube job? Even worse, suppose some major repairs are needed. Now what?<br /><br /><li>Later (perhaps 100 years into the future), we will want to bring the rovers (and landers) into shirtsleeve environments to work on them. (We saw a little of that in the movie <i>2001</i>. The lunar transit vehicle was moved into a underground chamber prior to disembarking.) What options will we have for such a work environment? The doors may either need airlocks or be pressure sealed. (With a pressure sealed door, different pressures on each side force the door's seal even tighter so that until the pressure equalizes, the door won't open unless it or the hatch fail structurally.)</li></li></ul> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Legged vehicles would have an advantage in steep terrain. Note the use of Dante inside volcanoes. One of the Apollo missions landed next to a rille. However, the astronauts could not safe venture down inside it. Same problem with steep sided craters. In fact, some craters might not just be steep inside, but outside the crater wall too.<br /><br />However, in flat terrain, wheeled vehicles provide for more speed. Getting there in 5 hours rather than 2 days with limited endurance could be key. So perhaps a hybrid vehicle could be developed. One thing that I would not support for manned or unmanned legged rovers would be manual placement of the legs. With more than 2 legs and on steep terrain, that would be tough. You would need to incorporate a lot of sensors and rapid reaction. Here on Earth, when you go into the Grand Canyon on mule-back, you trust your mule to pick the right footing. Some horse breeds are even smarter. With them, you point the horse in the general direction, and it does the rest. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>One solution to the dust problem is to use rear-entry space suits that "dock" to the outside of rover. No material actually enters the habitat.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Neat idea, but complicated. Shucks they should have a room where they vacumm themselves and the suits off.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Are you aware that lunar fines have a magnetic property? They stuck to Apollo-era suits. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[scottb50]

Then when they find and interesting area they can don the space suits and go out and explore....<br /><br />I think there will be a lot of times when a suit will be used. What I see is if it is used on a regular basis contamination problems will far out weigh the use of the suit. I would think a tourist who pays for a trip to the moon or Mars would have every right to walk around on the surface, if only to say they walked around on the surface.<br /><br />If you look at the actual needs the submersibles do exactly the same thing in a different environment and the dexterity of sampling equipment they use would help immensely in designing a moon or Mars vehicle.<br /><br />If the vehicle is small and maneuverable with various sensing and sampling devices it could get to pretty much everywhere a suited person could get to and do it a lot quicker and at a lower cost. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

That's why I suggested that the manned rover carry one or more small unmanned rovers for specialized duties. I like that enough that it might eliminate the need for astronauts to leave the rover with suits. However, suits probably would still need to be on the surface for problems. Also, with a rover that has no suits of it's own, how do you get back to base if the rover breaks down?<br /><br />That was a mission criteria in the Apollo missions. Astronauts, even with the rover, could not venture farther than they could walk back. Conceivably, we might be able to have enough people and rovers at one base to send out a rescue rover, but other than that, what can you do? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[scottb50]

You could always call AAA, it might take a few months though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Are you aware that lunar fines have a magnetic property? They stuck to Apollo-era suits. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Cleaning crews in offices have been using vacuums with magnetic strips on them to pick up metal stuff on the ground. I don't see the difference here. I think its a matter of fashioning the right tool. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

Why not just modify some Segways and use that at first? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I think the lunar dust "sticks" due to static electric charges not magnetic properties. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />That makes more sense. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>