Close up of Nasa mars cave image:<br />http://astronews.com/news/artikel/2007/05/0705-029a.shtml<br /><br />In this close up view..there is absolutely no light scattered into the cave? No ambience at all highlighting one side of the cave wall? Is'nt this strange?? <br />Would'nt one expect to see some falloff on the side of the cave facing the light?<br /><br />Here's some examples of similar things on earth, altho not 100% the same there is always some reflected light or falloff on 1 side of the cave wall:<br />http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4772/falloffbb7.jpg<br /><br />Here is what I would expect to see on the mars image:<br />http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1116/myversionqs6.jpg<br /><br />Even if the wall edge was recessed..but how far could it be beneath the edge of the rim without it collapsing..either way you look at it, somethings not right here.<br /><br />Does the emperor have no clothes? I know I'll get flamed for this..<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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IIRC at the NASA and/or JPL photo site, all the pictures have the illum angle and the camera angle.<br /><br />If you find anything hinky in your thorough search, please post it here.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
Did you even bother to do the bare minimum research necessary to make a credible claim ??<br /><br />FWIW, I have already seen the pictures, and Mars caves look to be pretty durn dark on the inside, just like the ones on earth.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
I know I'll at best be ignored if not laughed at for saying this, but it looks more like a lake shoreline than a empty hole. The edges of the black are too crisp and look to follow a topographical elevation too closely. <br /><br /><br />edit for spelling <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
I guess you did'nt look at my pictures eh? <br /><br />Its not hard to understand, light travels in a straight line until it hits a surface, scattering the waves. I dont see ANY diffuse reflection of light where there should be some on the side of the cave wall facing the light source. <br /><br />
I was thinking this too..although there's no specular highlights on it either, but its more plausable than "nothing"
Specially where there appear to be island or jeti type formations the edges of the black are sharp from any angle<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
maybe it depends on how light scatters in Mars' thin atmoshpere<br /><br />however I am also inclined to believe that that hole is filled with some dark liquid or dark something, on that first link it says it has diameter 100 meters and so that image is quite detailed or should be anyway<br /><br />the whole idea of deep holes on Mars seems to me very unlikely given how there is so much visible trace evidence all over Mars of seepage of liquids at some time in past, in short it seems like if you punched the surface you would come upon some liquid underneath or that a little heating would cause some welling up to surface of some liquid, maybe its crude oil deposits from the distant past when Mars was green and lush with plants...<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
What was the exposure time for the snapshot ??<br /><br />What is the expected reflectance for 'generic' rock in shadow at Mars' distance from the sun ??<br /><br />Work with me here, I'd be on your side with even a smidgen of effort on your part.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
If you can't answer even the easiest questions about the Mars picture (for instance: what was the sun angle at the surface) the Mods are going to bust this thread to phenomena.<br /><br />I would like to see you avoid that.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
More questions:<br /><br />Are the Mars pictures you're looking at JPEGs ??<br /><br />If not, have you tried even something like HP Image Zone to see if there is detail in the shadows ??<br /><br />If the pictures are not compressed, what are the data numbers in the shadows ?? All zeros, or all less than ~20 ??<br /><br />Is your computer moniter LCD or CRT ??<br /><br />(LCD does not portray detail at low image brightness)<br /><br /><br />These are all 'softball' questions that you could have pre-emptively answered in your initial post.<br /><br />Imagine the reaction had you.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
One might expect the shadowed side to show a different type of edge to the black area don"t you think? Why does the absolute blackened area follow what seems to be the same contour all of the way around? Sink hole? perhaps, but it looks more like a crater to me? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
why is phenomena treated as some garbage dump, I find many topics in there could be discussed in quite valid fashion and if they sometimes aren't doesn't mean anything because the discussion here is often not much better I find, its just hypocrisy as I see it, better to have the thread deleted than treat phenomena section as some refuse dump<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
The picture looks kinda strange, but I would guess that it is just and effect from exposure time and contrast. I would hardly call it 'suspicious'.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
why do I have to re-gurgitate info thats on the JPL site (like you said) <br /><br />But even so Im not a scientist & I know its extremely arrogant of me to even dare post a question. <br />I was just curious as to why it looked like a hole was cut of the picture. It does'nt ring true to me that there is absolutely nothing in that hole..not even a smidge of light on one side of the cave? Ok..why is that? Do Martian caves <br />have some light swallowing property not seen on earth?<br /><br />I tried to find some similar examples on earth (via google images) of sink hole's to illustrate my point. (see images)<br /><br />I think the angle of the sun at almost any attitude should be sufficient to produce a shadow or hightlight into the cave wall, anything except sunrise/sunset? <br /><br />I know there's multitudes of much smarter people than me on this forum, and was hoping for some answers thats all
<br /><br />Call me a heretic for bringing this topic up!
<br /><br />Call me a heretic for bringing this topic up!Why would they release a photo in such a fashion, so to even cause a debate? I also dont see why they'd need to blow out the contrast so much as to make the cave interior vanish. Is'nt that something we'd WANT to see.. how it could have been formed? Why destroy that data if it existed to begin with. And if it did'nt exist, whats going on here..
But vogon's point is that without that information, we cannot come up with a reasoned response to your question. I think we can agree that the cave looks impossibly dark. But why is it? Is it an image artifact? Is it due to the lighting available? Without some decent information about WHAT IT IS that we are really looking at, we cannot say...
By the way, operators of the HiRISE instrument that took the picture are equally baffled...<br /><br />Cut from http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/PSP/diafotizo.php?ID=PSP_003647_1745<br />-----------------------------------------------------------------<br />This image shows a very dark spot on an otherwise bright dusty lava plain to the northeast of Arsia Mons, one of the four giant Tharsis volcanoes.<br /><br />This is not an impact crater as it lacks a raised rim or ejecta. What's amazing is that we cannot see any detail in the shadow! The cutout shows this dark spot and a version that is "stretched" to best see the darkest area, yet we still cannot see details except noise (1380x782, 1 MB).<br /><br />The HiRISE camera is very sensitive and we can see details in almost any shadow on Mars, but not here. We also cannot see the deep walls of the pit. The best interpretation is that this is a collapse pit into a cavern or at least a pit with overhanging walls. We cannot see the walls because they are either perfectly vertical and extremely dark or, more likely, overhanging.<br /><br />The pit must be very deep to prevent detection of the floor from skylight, which is quite bright on Mars. <br /><br />Observation Geometry<br />Image PSP_003647_1745 was taken by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera onboard the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spacecraft on 07-May-2007. The complete image is centered at -5.5 degrees latitude, 241.4 degrees East longitude. The range to the target site was 252.5 km (157.8 miles). At this distance the image scale is 25.3 cm/pixel (with 1 x 1 binning) so objects ~76 cm across are resolved. The image shown here has been map-projected to 25 cm/pixel and north is up. The image was taken at a local Mars time of 03:27 PM and the scene is illuminated from the west with a solar incidence angle of 52 degrees, thus the sun was about 38 deg
It makes sense to wait until more information is given to say one way or another what it is for shure, but if that is the case then people are jumping to conclusions to call it a cave as well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
I guess I'll leave it at that then, maybe someone with more time and scientific knowledge will get past the "I guess it looks odd but oh well" and actually dig a bit deeper..I'd like to know WHY very much..! <br /><br />Cheers!
thanks for the input.<br /><br />Are there any more photos or plans to look there again to study the spot further? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
This may or may not be irrelevant, but it intrigues me that the shallow rim tapers towards the bottom; i.e. the diameter of the "roof of the cavern" is smaller than the diameter of the "hole in the surface". Also, there appear to be some bits sticking out from the rim "wall" which sort of look like they ought to have fallen in if there's a hole there. There's one just a tidge to the left of dead vertical. It's very weird.<br /><br />I am not an expert on anything at all, by the way, just to clarify.
It does look odd. Here is a zoom in on the edge of the wall:<br /><br />http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/978/zerlg8.jpg<br /><br />taken from:<br /><br />Space Sciences<br />Does it still look like a HOLE??? (image enhanced) <br />Posted by Raoul on 5/28/2007 1:18:51 AM <br />http://habitablezone.com/space/messages/470640.html<br /><br /> The edge between the wall and the dark bottom looks impossibly sharp. You would think the same slant of the wall would continue further down. <br /> Perhaps there is a cavern below but you would think the edge would be more rounded.<br /> Anyone else want to take a stab at zooming into the walls using the highest resolution of the image available:<br /><br />Candidate Cavern Entrance Northeast of Arsia Mons.<br />http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/PSP/diafotizo.php?ID=PSP_003647_1745<br /><br /> The CRISM spectometer on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter has a resolution of 20 meters so should be able to see specifically inside the hole and might be able to determine what it is at the bottom of the hole.<br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
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