Mars Cave..something suspicious?

[JonClarke]

This was a hot off the dish presentation, and included quite a few images not yet rleased yet. Wait to you see the one of the liquid flow that MOC caught! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. These should be public within a few months I suspect.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[deapfreeze]

It would take like 30 seconds for Bush to anounce manned missions to mars it he thought there was oil there. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#0000ff"><em>William ( deapfreeze ) Hooper</em></font></p><p><font size="1">http://deapfreeze-amateur-astronomy.tk/</font></p><p> </p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">Wait to you see the one of the liquid flow that MOC caught! . <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> These should be public within a few months I suspect. <br /></font><br /><br />Jon, you forget. Those were not MOC pictures, but rather Mars Express pictures. They are still in internal ESA review and publication cycles. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> We should expect public release in approximately two years complete with multiple 3D views and brilliant color. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Err, what ME images?<br /><br />It was MOC that caught the before and after images of the fluid flow on Mars. In Was HirRISE that provided the images shown at the presentation I saw.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Why do you say that?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

<font color="yellow"> To this day, even with enhanced images from later probes, some cannot be disuaded from seeing a "Face on Mars". </font><br /><br />Don't think even for a second that I believe the FOM is an artificial construct. Having said that, you can see the "Face" beautifully in this MRO photo of the Cydonia Mensae region. I printed this off & posted it on the wall of my office, right under the full size map of Mars. <br /><br />edit; ooops, thats a Mars Express photo <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Well, keep in mind that lava caves have been predicted on Mars for a very long time, several decades at least. Young volcanoes would be the ideal place to look for them. For many reasons extensively discussed elsewhere, caves are very interesting features. So people have been keeping an eye out for them. What aspects of this feature make people think it is a cave entrance?<br /><br />1) It's in the right geologivcal environment - the slopes of a young volcano.<br /><br />2) It's got the right geometry in the original THEMIS day time visible image - a rounded very deep, very steep sided hole.<br /><br />3) The THEMIS daytime IR image shows the feature as being cooler than the surrounding terrain, as you would expect for a cave entrance. Cave interiors are at the regional cimatic average temperature which will be well below the daytime maximum.<br /><br />4) The THEMIS night time IR shows the feature as eing warmer than the surrounding terrain. Again this is what you would expect with a cave, the night time surface temperature is much colder than the climatic average and warm air will rise out of the cave.<br /><br />5) The released HiRISE image confirms 2).<br /><br />6) The as yet unreleased HiRISE image shows vertical walls and adeep interior slope is covered by large boulders, exactly what would be expected from a collapsed lava cave.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Would this be a good time to introduce everyone to the clearest example of Martian megalithic art on the planet- the "Mars Cow"?

 

[telfrow]

Let's keep the thread on topic, shall we? <br /><br />Discussions of "Martian megalithic art" belong elsewhere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[why06]

hehe... that is pretty cool though.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Sorry, just a bit of fun with paredolia, not meant to be taken seriously <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Just MHO but I don't think the current discussion about the formation of a cave is anywhere near Hoaglandesque prehistoric Martian lunacy as has been implied. The prospect of these caves being a natural haven for Mars life is quite thrilling enough!<br /><br />BTW I found the "cow" somewhere on the Face's "forehead". Maybe it's a tattoo <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[anthmartian]

Excuse me if this point has been raised before. I have not read the entire topic.<br /><br />It appears to me we have come full circle, and ended up back at the same argument as the " the moon landings were faked, because there are no stars in the sky" etc.<br /><br />To me the surrounding area appears extremely bright. The hole is dark. if any body knows even a little about photography the problem is solved right there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[steve70]

Dose anyone know how deep these holes would need to be for the atmospheric pressure to be high enough for water to exist in it's liquid state. <br /><br />If this is a dumb question please disregard as I am a total layman.

 

[vogon13]

At some point a spacecraft will achieve the correct geometry regarding sun angle and picture angle.<br /><br />Recall the shadow of the spacecraft on asteroid Itakowa image.<br /><br />The depth of the floor of cavern will be a factor in deciding how precisely the spacecraft camera must be aligned to achieve such an image.<br /><br />(It sounds like such an image is in the pipeline, BTW)<br /><br /><br />Also, recall the lower gravity on Mars will allow amazingly large lava tubes to maintain their structural integrity, assuming equivalent bearing strength compared to earth rock of the overlying Martian strata.<br /><br />And why would the mechanical properties of Mars rocks be radically different from the earthian counterparts ??<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Not a dumb question at all.<br /><br />LPI Article <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

Agreed, not a dumb question. But because this cave (and the others close by) or at a high altitude on Mars, they would have to be very deep -- probably on the order of multiple kilometers before fresh-water could exist as a liquid. BUT, if any water in these caves was highly salty, it might be possible for that water to exist as a liquid. I do not, however, recall how briny the water must be to exist as a liquid.

 

[qso1]

Anthmartian:<br />To me the surrounding area appears extremely bright. The hole is dark. if any body knows even a little about photography the problem is solved right there.<br /><br />Me:<br />Good point. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

<[Does] anyone know how deep these holes would need to be for the atmospheric pressure to be high enough for water to exist in it's liquid state.><br /><br />I've looked at the water question and it's a little complicated. (The information I've compiled is a purely amateur effort, so keep that in mind.) <br /><br />Liquid water depends on a combination of temperature and pressure. And temperature and pressure on Mars varies radically depending on season, altitude, and time of day. Then there is the variation of how saline the water is. Brines can have a significantly lower freezing temperature than pure water.<br /><br />The 'skylights' are located in a volcanic region of Mars which has higher than average elevation, so therefore lower pressure and lower temperature. Two strikes right off the bat.<br /><br />A better place to look for liquid water is at the greatest depths of Mars, such as the Hellas basin which is in the southern hemisphere. Pressure is 1/3 higher than average because of the great depth of Hellas which is lower than 6 km below the average altitude.<br /><br />But you also want to look during the right time of year too. Because of the eccentricity of the Martian orbit, the southern hemisphere has colder winters and hotter summers than the northern hemisphere. So much so that during the southern winter, a good chunk of the Martian atmosphere condenses out and adds to the size of the southern icecap. During the southern summer, the southern icecap partly evaporates and increases the pressure of the martian atmosphere by as much as 1/3!<br /><br />But the final problem of liquid water on Mars is the most vexing. Even if liquid water forms on the surface, the martian atmosphere is so dry that liquid water would evaporate fairly quickly. Some experiments show that evaporation in cold still air is much slower, but evaporation is still a problem.<br /><br />Unless continually fed, perhaps by some underground spring, any occurance of liquid water on th

 

[3488]

Hi gunsandrockets.<br /><br />You have hit the nail right on the head.<br /><br />The three Tharsis volcanoes, Ascraeus Mons, Pavonis Mons & Arsia Mons (North to South order) sit on a gigantic ridge, some <br />9 KM above the Datum line (where average atmospheric pressure is 6.1 MB).<br /><br />The summits of these shield volcanoes sit some 22 KM above the datum line.<br /><br />The cave entrance in question, even if at the base of Arsia Mons will be at least 9 KM above<br />the Datum line.<br /><br />Unless extremely saline & cold, any liquid water will evaporate very quickly.<br /><br />An abode for extremophiles in these caves, that could well be quite<br />likely if they can trap moisture & cope with extreme cold.<br /><br />Someone earlier correctly pointed out, that lava tubes on Mars can be huge, before collapsing, because <br />of the 38% surface gravity.<br /><br />I would just love to land something in that cave with powerful lighting to image & survey <br />what this cave is like.<br /><br />Lava drips like stalactites hanging from the roof, folded solidified lava flows, etc.<br /><br />Would be spectacular.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Jon, is it possible that this hole is the product of a whack by an asteroid right on top of a lave tube? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[3488]

Probably best for Jon Clarke or exoscientist to answer, but IMO, yes<br />it is possible. There are impact craters on the volcanoes on Mars.<br /><br />The circular shape, does look like an impact into a cave.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[steve70]

Thanks for all the information regarding what is needed for water to exist (and for the correction in my spelling <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. I did not take into account the high altitude that the caves sit at now.<br /><br />I don't reckon one of you fellas has a wall climbing robot hid in the basement somewhere do ya? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[paulscottanderson]

Could be from impact but I doubt it; remember this first hole imaged by MRO is just one of the seven known similar ones in that area photographed before by Odyssey. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">-----------------</span></font></p><p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">The Meridiani Journal</span><br />a chronicle of planetary exploration<br />web.me.com/meridianijournal</font> </p> </div>

 

[3488]

You could be right, but remember, the atmosphere is incredibly thin &<br />Mars orbits the sun much closer to the asteroid belt, so<br />seeing seven of these is not <br />that surprising.<br /><br />Looking forward to seeing the new, longer exposed images of this<br />'cave entrance'.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

The gas-pressure could theoretically be surprisingly high, if that was a several km deep cave or lava tube. Think a column of air. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>