Mars Cave..something suspicious?

[ianke]

Its about 100 meters across<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

If you scan the whole image, there are ten or so elongated pits aligned from the bottom right to the top left that look similar to each other, and quite different from the usual craters, unless they were heavily eroded by the wind.<br /><br />The crust that covers the cavern doesn't seem very thick, and should be mostly made of dust over the frozen lava wall. Could its ceiling be cracked and dust be falling through?<br /><br />Also, looking with the IAS, at 18000, 25200 at 1:8, at the end of the V depression, there's a brighter, twisted, fuzzy feature about 200m long pointing to the right. At 1:1 there's nothing special in the ground. I think it may be an image scaling artifact but, if not, could it be something in the air? A faint dust devil? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Jerramy]

So I've made a little image processor, that balances the brightness curve. It works really good for doing night vision stuff. It does a bit better than gamma adjustment. Here's what I came up with on this photo:

 

[Jerramy]

Okay, so the last one's still waiting for approval, but here's the same program, running on one of the zoomed in edges.<br /><br />I swear I can see the wall of the cave curving away, like it's a spherical cave...<br />

 

[3488]

Looking forward to seeing your images.<br /><br />Cannot wait to see what you have found.<br /><br />Thanks FranOntanaya for your brilliant image. I have downloaded<br />it. Hope you do not mind.<br /><br />Your image confirms what I suspected all along.<br /><br />The roof of the lava tube will be quite thin.<br /><br />I off to bed now as it is late here now.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[aspurgeon]

Just curious if anyone has seen aerial photos of similar holes here on Earth? I just want something to compare with.

 

[Jerramy]

Well, I jumped through the hoops necessary to get the image from the source, and the raw image ended up looking a lot like FranOntanaya's. All the stuff I had done before must have been on a lossy version.<br /><br />Mostly what I see in the black is the camera's noise. I have to assume that what I'm seeing in the lossy images is an artifact of the lossy blending from the bright edges of the hole.<br /><br />In any case, here's my last contribution, run on the lossy version of the image. This is really nothing that the viewer's DRA function won't do for you.<br />

 

[anthmartian]

I am not sure you will bring out any detail in the hole. because there is probably none to bring out on this particular image. Like i said before, i believe this is a image exposure issue. <br /><br />You cannot make stars appear on Apollo images by brightening or adjusting moon mission images either.<br /><br />For me this is an entrance to a lava tube. The surrounding plains are very bright, and dust covered. The hole is deep, and probably the tubes interior is very dark volcanic rock. That's why the camera did not pick out detail inside the cave. Sometimes we forget many rocks on Mars are dark once you remove the dust covering them. So, the rock above the cave would look a lot lighter than under the surface.<br /><br />I doubt you will find anything like this on Earth. Mars one third gravity would probably make such features unique to the red planet. On Earth with moisture, the elements, faster erosion, and more gravity, i suspect this would have collapsed long ago. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Very true Anthmartian.<br /><br />The only IMO that this could be resolved anytime soon, would be for<br />HiRISE to track on this feature, creating a longer exposure.<br /><br />Also later on during the Martian year, just prior to the Northern Spring / Southern Autumn <br />equinox, the sun will shine into this lava tube.<br /><br />The image is centered about 5.5 deg south (between the equator & the Tropic of Leo), so the Sun <br />WILL shine directly into it about twice every martian year.<br /><br />Thank you FranOntanaya & Jerramy very much for your images however. <br /><br />I for one very much appreciate all of your considerable efforts to reveal the <br />interior of this feature very much.<br /><br />As Anthmartian correctly said, the 38% gravity, etc, will make giant lava tubes,<br />last much longer, than their counterparts on Earth.<br /><br />Anthmartian has also hit another nail on the head. Using his reasoning,<br />this is evidence for very little, if any seismic activity on the Tharsis Rise.<br /><br />If Marsquakes were common here, this lava tube would have still collapsed ages ago.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Undara Caves are some of the most spectacular lava caves on Earth. There are some nice photos here as well.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Thank you very much Jon Clarke.<br /><br />I really appreciate you images.<br /><br />They are fantastic, a brilliant example of what I was explaining.<br /><br />I suspect the Undara Caves are just like this feature on / near Arsia Mons.<br /><br />There are some very good, considerate people on these boards.<br /><br />Thank you also for giving me another place to go & visit.<br /><br />Will talk again later.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[aspurgeon]

Once again I'm thinking like an Earthling. That all makes great sense. I forgot how low Mars gravity was which would help account for these huge holes.<br /><br />I cant wait until we send a robot to inspect one of these caves.<br /><br />Thanks!

 

[exoscientist]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>This free program can decode the highest resolution JP2 images: <br /><br />HiRISE: ENVI/IAS Viewing Tools. <br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/iasclient/ <br /><br />Try it on the image of the "cave": <br /><br />HiRISE | Candidate Cavern Entrance Northeast of Arsia Mons (PSP_003647_1745). <br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003647_1745 <br /><br />There are options in the program for varying the contrast in the image.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br /> <br />There is a nice option to view the JP2 images stored on the online site. At the top of the window you see there is a blue globe. This is the option to open the remote file. <br />When you click on the globe you are asked for the server address. Type this into the box:<br /><br />hijpip.hinet.lpl.arizona.edu:8064<br /><br />Then click on the "Connect to Server" button.<br /><br />Now you have to tell IAS which image you want to look at using the PDS code for the image. The "cave" image is on this page:<br /><br />HiRISE | Candidate Cavern Entrance Northeast of Arsia Mons (PSP_003647_1745). <br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003647_1745<br /><br />The code is included in the title: PSP_003647_1745<br /><br />Now, IAS can only open images of the high resolution JP2 type. But on the server there will be all kinds of images and data, JPEG's , unprocessed images, labels, etc., as well as JP2 images. The JP2 images listed will have a "J" in an orange circle to the left of the code. The other types will just have a grey circle. <br />Also among the list there will be smaller, compressed versions of the full JP2 images. These are the "Quicklook" versions. They will have a "Qlook" as part of their name. IAS can open these because they are JP2 files but remember they are n <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">How could this structure survive impacts so close to it, and if it formed post impact, where is the flow evidence of this lava tube on the adjacent craters? </font><br /><br />Interesting questions. IMHO people here have been too quick to call these lava tubes. While it's possible these are lava tubes, it is far from indisputable. The one thing people here may be forgetting: MARS AINT EARTH!!!

 

[jaxtraw]

Are there any other means by which big caverns could form? Water erosion like limestone caves? Big volcanic gas bubbles?

 

[franontanaya]

I believe Dena's craters formed by collapse, not by impactors, or at least they went through mass wasting after a small impact. They got clean flat edges, no debris around, and all four are aligned. Some like these can be seen near faults, too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

If you look at the image that FranOntanaya psoted, therere are lots of features that look like lava flows.<br /><br />As for the cave surviving impacts, basalt is a very strong rock and the chock wave from the impact might have been what caused the root to collapse.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">Interesting questions. IMHO people here have been too quick to call these lava tubes. While it's possible these are lava tubes, it is far from indisputable. The one thing people here may be forgetting: MARS AINT EARTH!!!</font><br /><br />No. it's not, but I like the notion of familiarity if indeed they are lava tubes.<br /><br />If anything, I certainly hope that continued Mars exploration supports the conclusion that our Earth is not "unique" as opposed to the converse.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[3488]

Good point though.<br /><br />Mars aint Earth, but that is why familiar features to us here on Earth, can grow<br />to enormous sizes in Mars.<br /><br />That these lava tubes, can grow to enormous sizes before collapsing,<br />Olympus Mons, Ascraeus Mons, Pavonis Mons, Arsia Mons, Apollonaris Patera, Elysium Mons & Hecates Tholus, you put those volcanoes here on Earth, they will sink into the mantle!!!!!<br /><br />Not the mention Vallis Marineris, a canyon system like that on Earth, would collapse in on <br />itself, or fill with lava.<br /><br />Bear in mind there is only 38% surface gravity.<br /><br />If Jon Clarke or exoscientist know better, please enlighten me. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

BTW given the very thick crust, the one-third gravity, and the fact that the crust should have a strength similar to Earth's, isn't there a possibility that huge caves exist unlike in Earth's thin mallow crust? I mean really huge.(kms wide, hundred of meter high).<br />Even below the Datum line? <br />Having contributed to engulf/bury early oceans and atmosphere?

 

[JonClarke]

I apologies. I think what you are calling impact craters in Dena are actually part of the colappased roof of other sections of the cave. This is why they form a line. See http://www.planetary.org/image/PSP_3647_1745_cut_b.jpg, top left.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Post deleted by 3488 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Sorry, image did not attach.<br /><br />Hi Jon, <br /><br />I think that you replied to me in mistake. I think you meant anvel. <br /><br />Hi H2Ouniverse, I suspect that the crust of Mars is very much stronger than Earth's. <br /><br />Jon Clarke is correct in saying that Basalt is extremely strong. The crust of Mars is <br />ikely to be made of the stuff, is likely to be deeper than Earth's. Mars is also likely to have <br />a mostly solid mantle too. <br /><br />I found the following on the Geology of Mars website. <br /><br />"Although both Viking landers carried a seismometer on board, there were no seismic data collected. <br />Due to instrument packaging difficulties, the two seismometers were put on the top of the <br />landers. As a result, they became wind gauges instead of instruments to detect Martian quakes. <br />Like all other celestial bodies, therefore, the Martian interior can only be deduced at present <br />from geophysical observations such as mean density and mean radius. It is estimated that <br />Mars has a low density crust about 25-70 km thick. <br /><br />Beneath the crust, there is a silicate mantle between 1300-1800 km thick. <br />At the center, there is likely an iron-rich metallic core with a radius that may vary from <br />1500-2000 km". <br /><br />Andrew Brown. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[Jerramy]

Trying again...<br /><br />There -is- something to be seen in the noise.<br /><br />I'd swear that I can almost make out two or three craters in there (about 1/10th of the width of the cave opening).<br /><br />

 

[3488]

Wow, I hope that you image will be approved soon.<br /><br />If there are craters INSIDE the dark centre, than it rules out a cave.<br /><br />It is then obviously a lava filled impact crater, partially filled with dark lava & / or ashl!!!<br /><br />I hope that perhaps repeated sweeps with HiRISE, can be stacked, to create<br />a longer exposure image of the dark 'hole'.<br /><br />It would be exciting if it was a hole in the roof of a giant lava tube,<br />but you may have found it otherwise.<br /><br />Thank you for your effort.<br /><br />Andrew Brown.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>