Mars Cave..something suspicious?

[MeteorWayne]

I would sincerely suspect he is making craterss out of random LSB's (the equivilent of mountains out of a molehill) but will withhold judgement until they are approved. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

It's a cave, for sure.<br /><br />And maybe well preserved since it seems to be on the most early stage of lava tube collapsing. I wonder how the falling dust spreads inside the cave. I guess we should expect to see a mound right under the hole. If it's too steep it would give a poorer angle for light reflection.<br /><br />Maybe wind flux through the hole carried the lighter dust further inside the cave, leaving darker dust (basaltic?) right below.<br /><br />Since light never reaches inside the cave, would ice slowly pile up inside? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Well, by squinting weirdly at my monitor, I'm almost certainly convinced I can see three-- round things, but I reserve judgement on whether they're concave or convex <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[3488]

Hi FranOntanaya,<br /><br />The hole is about 5.5 degrees south, that is between the equator & the Tropic of Leo on Mars.<br /><br />That means, as on Earth, an equivalent latitude on Earth is between the equator & <br />the Tropic of Capricorn, (Brazil, Peru, central southern Africa, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia),<br />the Sun will cross the Zenith, twice a year, once moving north, & again coming south.<br /><br />On Mars the same rules apply, but on a different time scale (due to its larger orbit further from<br />the Sun).<br /><br />So twice every martian year, the Sun will shine directly in.<br /><br />What needs to be done is<br /><br />either: <br /><br />1). For the MRO HiRISE to image this feature at such a time,<br /><br />or:<br /><br />2). Take repeated images over many orbits, then stack the images. This would have the same effect of a single<br />long exposure.<br /><br />or:<br /><br />3). Do Both.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

That is an interesting image Jerramy. How did you do the processing?<br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Bob,<br /><br />Could not agree with you more.<br /><br />There is something there for sure, but exactly<br />what????<br /><br />Thanks Jerramy for your effort & for posting your image.<br /><br />I hope that you do not mind, I have downloaded it.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[Jerramy]

I have to concur, I could in fact be making craters out of LSBs. It's hard to see much, if it's even there.<br /><br />My processing goes in several stages:<br /><br />1. Remove the nearly vertical stipes, by comparing short columns of pixels centered on a target pixel, and adjust the pixel's gain so that it's column has the same average intensity.<br /><br />2. Aquire an intensity value for each pixel, by averaging the intensity of expanding squares of pixels around the target pixel (each square gets equal weight in the average). This averages out a lot of noise, but also keeps detail related to the pixel's local area.<br /><br />3. Each pixel's intensity is then gained by cubing it, and appling a scaler gain to bring it into a range between 0 to 255.<br /><br /><br />I'm still working on it. I have some ideas for step 1, so that I can get a gain and a bias for each pixel, which might do a better job of getting rid of the stripes. I wish the image had the stripes truely vertical, instead of "mostly" vertical. I wish I could get my hands on the "real" original photo.<br /><br />Step 3 is constantly changing, as I try random things. If I manage to get anything better, I'll post that too.

 

[MeteorWayne]

I agree, hopefully better illumination later will clarify things. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[Jerramy]

Really just the same thing again, with a bit more processing work. Can't say anthing more can be seen, though perhaps it's a little clearer.<br />

 

[a_lost_packet_]

This is an uncompressed tif from the 400meg jp2 version. I cropped out the area of interest and put it in a format that some may find easier to use. No compression, no filters, just the portion everyone is interested in.<br /><br />http://i15.tinypic.com/6bxa5ae.jpg<br /><br />Well, crap. They compressed my file to a crappy jpg. Will upload it somewhere else.. stand by for edit..<br /><br /><edit /> imageshack turned it into a png file... /sigh<br /><br />http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6140/shot1mx4.png<br /><br />So, I said the heck with it and put in on a file sharer.<br /><br />http://upload2.net/page/download/a0JmrxjEAr4yRtA/shot-1.tif.html<br /><br />Hopefully, that preserves the format.... Image size is just over 2 meg.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[Jerramy]

I greatly appreciate your effort. However, I think this is the same thing I started with essentially. The vertical stripes are still slightly diagonal. I have to assume that the original image had them vertical, but because the satelite wasn't oriented exactly north/south, the image was then rotated in order to make it square with respect to north.<br /><br />This creates a loss of information, plus it makes it more challenging for me to remove the stripes.<br /><br />Also, the original jp2 has 10 bits of resolution (values of 0 to 1023 per pixel). When displayed on your screen, this is compressed down to 8 bits (256 intensities). In order to squeeze as much info out of the (nearly) black region as possible, I set the DRA control to show me only the intensities between 0 and 255. This brought out more detail than was otherwise present (though the lit areas of the image became washed out).<br /><br />Unfortunately, the only way I think I'm going to get a better image to work with is if someone at JPL were to send it to me. Which I just don't see happening.

 

[Jerramy]

You know, the more I look at this image, the more it looks more like a pool than a hole. Perhaps a pool of obsidian, rather than water. Take a look at this photo. Doesn't it look like debris has collected at the bottom of the slope?

 

[Jerramy]

Here's my "artist's" representation of what I think I'm looking at, from a side slice view.

 

[franontanaya]

I think the object at 4 o'clock from the center would be a piece of debris, a stone.<br /><br />Light that falls through the hole hits the cave walls at 1 o'clock, lighting inside features from up-right and casting shadows to bottom-left.<br /><br />The ring seems a flattened edge of the dark central feature, which could be a crater opened by the same impactor that made the hole. It puzzles me tho why it would be flat. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Posting before Jerramy's latest images are approved and visible on the board to me--<br /><br />I see a dark area in the middle, very roughly circular, but I tink that's an illusion created by absence of glare from the rim- an optical effect in the camera (?).<br /><br />Down to bottom right, I see at least 3 circular features which my eyes are keen to interpret as craters. However, what I see as shadowing on their internal walls seems to be at 1 o'clock; if the light is striking at 1 o'clock these should be the light areas!<br /><br />However, I'd suggest this. If the base of the cave is deep, no direct sunlight can hit the area we are seeing. Instead, I suggest that some light enters the cave and hits a wall or the floor, some way under the rim and invisible to us. So the bounce from this area is illuminating the floor <i>from</i> 1 o'clock, creating the shadows I seem to see.<br /><br />My interpretation is that this is a deep hole with a reasonably flat floor. It may have quite deep dust collected from the atmosphere as it acts as a "dust trap"(?) thus small craters could be easily formed in the dust just by bits of rock falling off the rim, or passing martians toppling in <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> or whatever, rather than needing meteorite impacts to create them.<br /><br />That's my speculation, for what it's worth <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[3488]

Because of the location of the cave, about 5.5 degress south (between the equator & <br />the Tropic of Leo on Mars), twice every martian year, the Sun will shine DIRECTLY into the cave<br />(if that is what it is) from the Zenith.<br /><br />I think that I have already mentioned this a few posts back.<br /><br />For several sols on either side, the Sun will still climb high enough to shine into it.<br /><br />Thank you everyone for your efforts with the images.<br /><br />The mystery deepens!!!!<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

I read your post earlier-- I was talking about the illumination when the pic we're discussing was taken. I.e. the sun's oblique illumination is perhaps illuminating some invisble (to us) part of the cave wall, and the diffuse reflection from that is very faintly illuminating the floor. It's only a speculation, as I said <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[Jerramy]

I was being quite literal with the term "pool of obsidian".<br /><br />Molten rock, in a crater/tube/hole, which then solidified into obsidian as it cooled.<br /><br />I really doubt that it's a liquid pool, though I suppose that maybe oil or some sort of nano-particals could fit the bill. I believe Larry Niven may have written a story about an astronaut who fell into a pool of buckyballs on Mars. Who knows, maybe he was on to something!<br /><br />Seriously though, I think that magma which cooled into obsidian is orders of magnitude more likely than oil or buckyballs.<br /><br /><br />

 

[jaxtraw]

The problem I have with a pool of anything, liquid or solid, is why it wouldn't be covered with lighter coloured dust... I don't see how it would maintain such a pure dark colour. <br /><br />(edit)<br /><br />Just another observation, but I see what appear to be two distinct strata in the rim in your enlargement above. I don't know if that might mean anything useful, or not.

 

[MeteorWayne]

No light!<br />That makes things very dark. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I'd say that what we're seeing is the absence of a heavy atmosphere being able to scatter light so that indirect lighting would be able to reach the interior of the "hole." There's a very sharp demarcation of light/dark much like you see with lunar images. If the area had been more dusty, we may have seen a bit more of the interior perhaps? In the few filters I played around with, there seemed to be a couple of interior impact craters. But, that could have just been a processing anomaly. The images weren't worth posting. I'll muck around with another program to see if I get anything out of it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Thanks for the image info and the primer on resolution differences! I didn't know that. Maybe I'll learn something here yet. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Going to see if I can yank anything promising out of it. Doubtful, but still interesting to do. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[robnissen]

But if there's no light, it could be a pool of cow's milk -- you still couldn't see it. I think the point being made, is that we are seeing obsedian, not the blackness of no light. But if that was the case, it would have to be covered by dust. Thus, it can not be that we are seeing something black, rather, we are seeing the absence of light.

 

[MeteorWayne]

That's an excellent point a_l_p.<br /><br />We are used to air scattering light a lot here on earth, and don't even realize it.<br /><br />It is an alien world after all <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

That's why I'm suggesting dim reflection from a cave wall, as I've expertly illustrated (ahem) here <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />