Mars Cave..something suspicious?

[anthmartian]

the depth of that solid rock does not suggest it would be that fragile, to me at least. <br /><br />I would not expect it to give way under its own weight with that amount of rock connected and supporting it all the way down. Especially as discussed earlier, when you factor in the weak martian gravity. <br /><br />To me this is extremely exciting. This is real exploration! My head is going around and around trying to imagine what made this happen. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Anthmartian I agree totally with you there 100%. This is real exploration. A real mystery, & for<br />a volcano head like me (deep hole being on <br />Arsia Mons) a real point of interest.<br /><br />FranOntanaya has posted a real good image there. The depth being a minimum of 255 feet. WOW, that<br />is deep.<br /><br />I agree with the interpretation of the lower curve at the 5 o'clock position being the roof of<br />the actual lava tube.<br /><br />That wall rock visible on the right is deep. The roof of this cave is thick & seems too strong to<br />just collapse in the 38% gravity.<br /><br />That cave roof even appears to be strong enough to support itself on Earth, let alone Mars!!!<br /><br />The question here therefore, is Why is that hole there?<br /><br />Did a meteorite punch right through the roof of the Lava tube?<br /><br />Possible, perhaps said meteorite & debris from the punched out lava is on the lava <br />tube floor?<br /><br />I only hope that when late southern Summer arrives in the Southern Hemisphere of <br />Mars & the Sun is at Zenith, @ 9 degrees south, the MRO HiRISE can look straight into it, <br />revealing the floor. No matter how deep it is, the Sun around noon (perhaps late morning <br />or early afternnon will be OK also) will shine directly onto it.<br /><br />Just hope that MRO will be in the correct place.<br /><br />FranOntanaya's image clearly shows that the illumination for this <br />enigmatic feature IS improving.<br /><br />I like those layers, built up over several episodes of volcanic activity.<br /><br />I wonder what the age differance is between the bottom one & the one on top??<br /><br />Questions, questions, questions!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Yes, you are correct Anthmartian, this is EXTREMELY exciting & INTERESTING stuff.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

There's at least another layer in the darkness: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Lets hope you image is approved very soon.<br /><br />Its a shame I cannot approve it for you, or I would do so right now.<br /><br />I for one am extremely grateful for your efforts FranOntanaya.<br /><br />Thank you very much indeed. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Some more about it on Newscientist site:<br /><br />http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12566-strange-martian-feature-not-a-bottomless-cave-after-all.html

 

[3488]

I have been able to blow up a section of the hole & reveal more detail within the 'wall'.<br /><br />MRO HiRISE.<br /><br />NASA / JPL.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

<font color="yellow">That wall rock visible on the right is deep. The roof of this cave is thick & seems too strong to just collapse in the 38% gravity. <br /><br />That cave roof even appears to be strong enough to support itself on Earth, let alone Mars!!! <br /><br />The question here therefore, is Why is that hole there? </font><br /><br />Well there's a million $$ question if ever I saw one. Seeing the HiRISE pic you recently posted and the apparent craters on the veritical wall therein, only make your remarks above ring even more true. I'm going to throw a completely speculative idea into the thread to stir the pot a bit. <br /><br />Here on Earth we have lava that comes in different forms. Some is high viscous and "gooey" and others are less viscous and "brothy". Could this be the result of a bubble that formed in a "brothy" lava tube and the collapsed (for some yet to be specified reason) ? What do we know about the nature of ancient Mars lava in this region ?<br /><br />Feel free to disregard my amateur musings on this issue, I just find these holes {spock_voice} intriguing. {/spock_voice} <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Yes, could be.<br /><br />Cesar Manrique had his house on the Canary Island of Lanzarote incorporated<br />into two small lava bubbles.<br /><br />I have been there myself & it is really weird, but to a volcano head like me, an absolutely <br />fantastic place to live.<br /><br />This hole on Arsia Mons, could be a skylight into a giant lava bubble, rather than a<br />lava tube.<br /><br />The 38% gravity would allow for the survival of larger features of that nature.<br /><br />Hopefully we will get to see this again, when the illumination continues to favour <br />that latitude.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

That's quite remarkable andrew!<br /><br />I can't see why this can't be a skylight into a lava cave though.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[brellis]

<font color="yellow">Cesar Manrique had his house on the Canary Island of Lanzarote incorporated<br />into two small lava bubbles.<br /><br />I have been there myself & it is really weird, but to a volcano head like me, an absolutely<br />fantastic place to live.</font><br /><br />I spent a fantastic month on Lanzarote. I went to Manrique's place. The event, called Musica Visuale de Lanzarote, is run by Manrique's heir to the cultural throne, Ildefonso Aguilar. Aguilar's house looks like a boat being swept along on top of a surging river of lava. What a sight!<br /><br />Aguilar uses crushed lava in his landscape paintings, echoing the astounding visual appeal of the island. Under constantly moving clouds, the mountains change colors continuously as the sun peeks through then disappears again. Beguiling! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[anthmartian]

Maybe when we get to Mars we can put a grill over the top and cook chicken like in the restaurant at Timanfiya Park in Lanzarote! ( Only funny if you ever been there, and even then it's doubtful. )<br /><br />Seriously though. I am hoping to get back to the Canary Islands in November, thanks to topics like these i will be looking at the features there with fresh eyes.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

Nice image Andrew.<br /> Perhaps Jerramy can tease out further detail from this image as he did the first HIRISE image of this feature.<br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[brellis]

dude, i am SO down for an outer-planetary grill party! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[signalhill]

Imagine repelling down that hole. Would make one mind-blowing National Geographic special. <br />

 

[billslugg]

In 1970 a bunch of us were in Leysin, Switzerland on a mountain called the Tour d' Ai. We had 300 feet of rope and decided to rappel off an overhanging portion of the mountain. We anchored, tossed it over and went to rappel. At the last moment we thought we should walk down to the bottom to make sure that the rope reached all the way. We did, and it didn't. As I recall, it was about 500 feet short of the ground. Would have made for an interesting several hours of climbing back up the rope. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

Omg, when did they release that? It's amazing! See the full image, there are huge dark wind streaks coming out of the holes.<br /><br />There are also other aligned collapse pits in an earlier stage of mass wasting. I don't really think impacts are the main factor that create those holes, though I guess they may help. What about the effect of the sun heat on those darker walls?<br /><br />I picked a crop of the image. This is around 60cm/pixel (resized a bit): <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[3488]

Thanks borman.<br /><br />I have attached a crop of those two dark pits.<br /><br />Hi FranOntanaya, yes I am wondering too, when that was released. Was <br />not in the last crop of released MRO HiRISE images.<br /><br />Just seen your image approved. Looks like a pit, rather than a tube (unless that <br />dark area on the left at the bottom is a tube entrance). <br /><br />To me it does not look like a lava bubble either. Impact crater????? If so, where's the ejecta??<br /><br />The dark windblown fan perhaps??<br /><br />Thanks Jon Clarke & Bob Clark, I will pursue this some more.<br /><br />I just hope this area will be re-imaged closer to the Equinox, when the sun will <br />shine almost straight down & hopefully we get to see the actual floors.<br /><br />My guess is that these are skylights to a lava tube. The ejecta seems weird, in <br />someways suggestive of outgassing??? Is Arsia Mons STILL ACTIVE?????<br /><br />This is very exciting indeed.<br /><br />Shock wave from nearby impacts, could cause portions of the roof to collapse, but IMO, <br />that would be more linear, instead we see circular collapse patterns.<br /><br />(Edited as FranOntanaya's image was approved & put a few extra comments / questions in).<br /><br />NASA / JPL / MSSS.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[arkady]

Marvellous thread guys! History in the making. <br /><br />I've been following it since the images were released, and on a number of occasions I've been wondering if they could be giant potholes similar to the ones found in the Washington Scablands, but the lavatubes idea seemed more likely especially taking into account the surrounding landscape. (seems rather flat to me)<br />(edit: and the vicinity of a large volcano, doh!)<br /><br />This image doesn't resemble a lavatube to my (uneducated) eyes though, so I felt the idea deserved to be mentioned, if nothing else to give me piece of mind. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />(I realize that what I'm proposing would require a water event of cataclysmic proportions, and as such not very likely explanation. Also I've never really figured out how to navigate the JPL site, preventing me from doing any sort of research into the matter myself, but as I said piece of mind ..) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>

 

[3488]

I second that arkady.<br /><br />This is a great thread & hopefully very soon, as the Sun contrinues to climb higher <br />at the latitude of these 'holes' we will see the floors, although FranOntanaya has already <br />successfully shown us one in that excellent image that he / she posted for us.<br /><br />That image to me DOES look like an excavation, as the lava layers appear to continue <br />downwards, rather then 'vitrified' as a lava bubble / tube would do.<br /><br />Howver, there is what appears to be a very dark area in shadow still, that could be an entrance<br />into said lava bubble / tube.<br /><br />This is real exploration & you are correct arkady, this IS history in the making.<br /><br />New MRO / HiRISE images will be released tomorrow, lets see if these features appear in <br />those images.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[arkady]

No objections here. Initially the sheer size of these features troubled me with respect to the lavetube idea, but I soon reminded myself that Martian analogues often dramatically dwarf their Earth-based counterparts. It's always good to keep in mind that geology translates into Earth-knowledge, so we're not observing geology at work here but rather areology.<br /><br />I have one quibble still however. Why are these holes almost perfectly circular? Seems to me a collapsed tube or cave wouldn't be. Doesn't circularity imply fluid erosion? <br /><br />Now, at this point it should be apparent that my geological experience is pretty much non-existant, but I really can't think of any other phenomena except impact cratering that produce such shapes. So I'd be interested in hearing of other examples. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>

 

[arkady]

Also wondering about the age of these features. Surely if they were ancient sinkholes shouldn't they be filled with stuff by now? <br /><br />Lastly, in spite if searching, I can't seem to find a zoomed out image of the area in which I'm still able to discern the holes, although I clearly remember seeing one. How many of these has been found exactly? Are they like pearls on a string? And are they all in the Arsia Mons area?<br /><br />Lots of questions, sorry. I'm still struggling with how to process the images from the HiRise database, but let it be known I'm trying. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Is that half an impact crater at the bottom, just right of center? Does this mean the collapse of the hole occurred some conisiderable time after the surface here formed?

 

[3488]

Hi arkady, I too have tried to do the same as yourself, but without luck.<br /><br />If they are in a linear pattern, then yes, it seems reasonable that a lava tube <br />roof is slowly collapsing.<br /><br />If haphazard, than more likely individual lava bubbles slowly collapsing. <br /><br />Hi jaxtraw & anvel.<br /><br />You are both correct. The collapse happened a very long time after the surface lava formed.<br /><br />With the 38% gravity on Mars, a feature like this can survive a very long time.<br /><br />Difficult to know, what caused the collapse: impacts, Marsquakes, Arsia Mons stirring, etc.<br /><br />Lets hope we get to see these features again, soon, when solar illumination is better.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Great crop by FranOntanaya ! Sure looks more like the exit of a tube/tunnel than the collapsed roof of a tube or bubble. Is it just me or does the makeup of the subsrface look a lot different than that of the surface. Seems to be a lot of boulders in a mixture of pumice ???<br /><br />The speculation on the WWW is that it's a pit crater so let me ask what makes it more likely that vs a vent ? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

Pit Craters on Alba Patera (5th Sept release):<br /><br />http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_005071_2150<br /><br />Unlike the previous caves, the borders of those pit craters are heavily eroded. Also, the debris inside is mixed, uniform and quite boulder-free.<br /><br />Could chemicals trapped in the tube be related to the previous ones in any way? Like, degrading slowly the dark layers through a leak point until the bright layers collapse? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>