Mars Cave..something suspicious?

[wildone_106]

interesting..!!

 

[abq_farside]

I have been trying to view the most recent J2000 MRO images but the LizardTech ExpressView plugin just shows black images for the last few images I have downloaded. Anybody else have this problem or using some other viewer? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><em><font size="1" color="#000080">Don't let who you are keep you from becoming who you want to be!</font></em></p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Well there's at least one certainty. It's going to need some kind of handrail around it.

 

[ianke]

Wouldn't want to fall in and drown.<img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[ianke]

I mean break your neck.<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">I mean break your neck</font>. . . or eaten alive by single-celled organisms? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[mental_avenger]

We have a lot of cave holes around here that look just like that. Coal mine tunnels deep underground collapse, their roofs caving in. That leaves a gap or cavern in the earth above them. Eventually that also collapses. This process continues until it eventually reaches just below the surface, at which point the ground in the center of the cavern falls in. While the section of ground that falls in may only be 5-10 feet across, the cavern underneath may be 50-100 feet across and quite deep. They would look just like the one in the picture. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I have seen a HiRISE image of this feature taken at a lower sun angle that shows quitye nicely a rubbly slope leading down into the depths. Exactly as would be expected with a collapsed lava tube.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[pyoko]

It's obviously an entry to the Lost City of Zork. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color:#ff9900" class="Apple-style-span">-pyoko</span> <span style="color:#333333" class="Apple-style-span">the</span> <span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span">duck </span></p><p><span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="color:#808080;font-style:italic" class="Apple-style-span">It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.</span></span></p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

So far as I can find, this is the only HIRISE image of the feature, which was requested as a followup to THEMIS imaging 7 holes. The HIRISE team can't see any detail in the black and are thus saying, reasonably, that it must be a small hole in the roof of a big cavern, so I'm not quite sure where a nice rubbly slope would enter the picture, so's to speak. If there were any rubbly slopes we'd see them in this shot, rather than the sharp edged rim that we see, surely?<br /><br />Or it might be a crater full of soot.

 

[pyoko]

Well, I know for sure that if I take my camera and point it at the window from the inside of a dark room (while it's daylight outside), and turn the flash on and take a photo, I would see a completely black rectangle where the window is, and a very bright outline which is my wall. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color:#ff9900" class="Apple-style-span">-pyoko</span> <span style="color:#333333" class="Apple-style-span">the</span> <span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span">duck </span></p><p><span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="color:#808080;font-style:italic" class="Apple-style-span">It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.</span></span></p> </div>

 

[paulscottanderson]

It should be noted that this "hole" is just one of the seven in that immediate area photographed earlier by Odyssey; it is the first one photographed by MRO (named Jeanne, labelled as 'F'). There are also other collapse-pit chains (lava tubes?) nearby. It was also the <i>thermal readings</i> from Odyssey which suggested these are deep holes, not just surface features. The LPSC paper linked to is a good read (pdf).<br /><br />http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000984<br />http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/1371.pdf<br /><br />From the LPSC paper:<br /><br /><i>"Thermal behaviors furthermore confirm they are not misidentified surface features such as dark sand or rock."<br /><br />"Analyses of the candidates suggest they are not of impact origin, not patches of dark surface material, and are likely skylight openings into subsurface cavernous spaces. Visible observations show dark holes with sufficient depth that no illuminated floors (incidence angles ≥ 61.5°) can be seen from a nadir perspective (Thermal-infrared data suggest temperatures inside these features remain nearly constant throughout each diurnal cycle. Figure 2 shows afternoon temperatures for Annie that are warmer than the shadows of adjacent collapse pits, and cooler than sunlit portions. Meanwhile, nighttime temperatures for this candidate are warmer than all nearby surfaces. Such is the behavior we would expect of a cavern floor that receives little or no daily solar insolation."</i><br /><br />And as noted in this Space.com article, the thermal studies they did of known cave entrances like this on Earth showed similar results:<br /><br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070402_mm_mars_caves.html<br /><br /><i>"During the first phase of the project</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">-----------------</span></font></p><p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">The Meridiani Journal</span><br />a chronicle of planetary exploration<br />web.me.com/meridianijournal</font> </p> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

You beat me to it Jon, my guess was a lave tube also. The proximity to the volcano can't be a coincidence. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

Doesn't Mars Odyssey have radar? Could that be used to study this? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

One option would be to say it's full of oil, then sit back and watch the NASA funding come rolling in.

 

[pyoko]

In the news:<br />NASA indicates Mars 'caves' full of oil.<br /><br />At the same time:<br />President Bush announces traces of WMDs found on Mars. Planned Mars liberation initiated. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color:#ff9900" class="Apple-style-span">-pyoko</span> <span style="color:#333333" class="Apple-style-span">the</span> <span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span">duck </span></p><p><span style="color:#339966" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="color:#808080;font-style:italic" class="Apple-style-span">It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.</span></span></p> </div>

 

[Boris_Badenov]

ROFLMAO <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>

 

[qso1]

in comparing the images of the mars hole and earths holes that you posted I do not see a whole lot of difference. First off, you saved me the task of looking for similar earth features as I was about to start searching myself. The ones you posted are excellent.<br /><br />The size of the hole has some bearing and it appears the upper earth image is close in size to the football field sized mars hole. The illuminated portion of the downslope shows up in both images, its just not as prominent in the mars image and not as much downslope size.<br /><br />The edge of the light falloff looks about the same or fairly sharp in both images. Where you marked "Falloff expected but there is none". I see the falloff line but its just closer to the top of the specular bloom than the earth image falloff line. If you look at the one area you didn't mark, that is the area at the top left of the hole, there appears the same sort of rough features that are present in the earth comparison. In the earth comparison, the rough downslope is present at the top right near the edge of what appears to be a road.<br /><br />Where you marked "What we should expect to see" is an example of how we expect to see one thing and see somethin different. Although in this case, I don't see enough of a difference to get that excited about. But the point here is, we don't always see what we expect to, especially in science.<br /><br />For me, the image comparison actually cleared up a few thoughts I had about how such a cave entry could form. I still don't know how they do form in that manner because I'm not a geologist or areologist, but the fact there are such features on earth tells me they are not terribly unusual. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

][url=ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_1.jpg]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_1.jpg]]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_1.jpg]]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_1.jpg][/url]<br />left][url=ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_left.jpg]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_left.jpg]left]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_left.jpg]left]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_left.jpg]left[/url]<br /><br />right][url=ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_right.jpg]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_right.jpg]right]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_right.jpg]right]ftp://mir2.pointclark.net/Hole_2_big_right.jpg]right[/url] half of the hole at 100%+ magnification<br /><br />why are these url markups not working, is this forum F~ed up or what, they show stupid so I delete them and then they show up again but are visible for christ sake, somebody do something with this garbage ancient forum pls<br /><br />notice at upper edge is something like a little peninsula, I would say this is a 'lake' not a hole, the whole talk about a hole with recessed walls and that the hole is perhaps a huge cavern sounds like somebody was watching star trek too much<br />BTW I was the first who came up with that crude oil idea and if it should be mined one day I want my share off it <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />the first pic is what I think is proper size 100% and than I enlarged one step more which is size that is obviously loosing quality but still is interesting to look at<br /><br />(the special viewer for these pics is kinda funky and I have really no idea when the image is shown at 100%, I just go by the seat of my pants as they say)<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

vanDivX:<br />I would say this is a 'lake' not a hole, the whole talk about a hole with recessed walls and that the hole is perhaps a huge cavern sounds like somebody was watching star trek too much.<br /><br />Me:<br />I tend to think its a hole, especially after seeing the earth comparative images which requires no Star Trek inputs. These appear to be visible light grayscale images and in that case, a lake would show up, even just a little bit, as bodies of water have always been visible in earth images. Of course, these could be lakes of some other kind of low reflectivity liquid. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[paulscottanderson]

See my post here again:<br /><br />http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=sciastro&Number=719508&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&vc=1<br /><br />The visual and thermal evidence gathered so far, as outlined in the original published reports, suggests these are holes ("skylights" over underground caverns), not dark surface features. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">-----------------</span></font></p><p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">The Meridiani Journal</span><br />a chronicle of planetary exploration<br />web.me.com/meridianijournal</font> </p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

you almost had me but then I was thinking and decided not let my view of it as a lake but at the same time I am not married to that view and am open to a hole <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />when I say lake I don't mean necessarily water or something like water in viscosity, the crude oil was a joke obviously but it could be some black stuff like it, perhaps on the border between solid and liquid and very near like blackbody, so that it would retain heat that the last poster remainded us of (the infrared evidence)<br /><br />if it was a hole in some cavern underneath, the visible edges of the hole wouldn't be likely to exhibit such uniform thickness of the 'ceiling' all around the perimeter but then again I don't really fight for this view, it just seems to me more likely while the caverns strike me as unlikely... although again Mars surface abounds in sinks of all kinds and perhaps this is such one that actually had the ground falling in instead of just sinking some distance<br /><br />also some months back there was that thread about some holes like features that at first looked like liquid filled holes but upon looking at the orig jpg2000 @several hundreds MB in size we could see the bottom and there were sand like dunes there (I also posted pics then like I did just now on my own ftp server), now these pics are of similar resolution and I would expect to see some detail if there is some coming out in that black part but it does not and also the edges have very uniform thickness as if the black stuff was some liquidy stuff which naturally keeps level along the shores, that's my thinking on it<br /><br />on the other hand Mars seems to have some liquidy stuff all over seeping from the ground and perhaps there was a cavern from which the liquid fill has gone and it is a cavern with the ceiling fallen in... but that still strikes me as less likely than some black liquid like road ashphalt that runs like liquid and level out if given time enough and which woul <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

I was skeptical of a hole cave myself till the earthly examples were posted here. But I don't rule out the possibility of liquid filling the hole. I guess the bottom line is we will have to get more data in the form of higher resolution imagery from different sun angles etc and even spectrographic data. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Jon Clarke is correct.<br /><br />Its a collapsed lava tube.<br /><br />The interior will appear dark as compared to the slopes of the giant volcano, because HiRISE<br />is imaging a sun lit volcanic slope. Any shaded caverns will appear black, because they are dark<br />compared to their surroundings.<br /><br />It would be fantastic to zero in on this feature again with HiRISE, to bring out detail of the interior.<br /><br />Thank you very much exoscientist for your enlargement of the northern rim. Your image clearly shows that the rim<br />looks like the rim of a collaped lava tube.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Makes even better sense now. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>