Mars Express uncovers depths of Mars

telfrow · Nov 30, 2005

Buried craters and underground ice 30 November 2005 For the first time in the history of planetary exploration, the MARSIS radar on board ESA's Mars Express has provided direct information about the deep subsurface of Mars. First data include buried impact craters, probing of layered deposits at the north pole and hints of the presence of deep underground water-ice. The subsurface of Mars has been so far unexplored territory. Only glimpses of the Martian depths could be deduced through analysis of impact crater and valley walls, and by drawing cross-sections of the crust deduced from geological mapping of the surface. With measurements taken only for a few weeks during night-time observations last summer, MARSIS - the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding - is already changing our perception of the Red Planet, adding to our knowledge the missing 'third' dimension: the Martian interior. Full Story Here: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Results_from_Mars_Express_and_Huygens/SEM7ZTULWFE_0.html Photo caption: These MARSIS 'radargram' images show echoes obtained from an approximately 250 km diameter circular structure in the subsurface of Mars, interpreted to be a buried impact basin. In both orbits, which are spaced about 50 km apart, MARSIS detected a series of arc-shaped reflectors that have no apparent source in the surface topography or geology. In the lower image, a linear reflector nearly parallel to the surface is seen embedded in the arcs. This reflection may be coming from the floor of the basin. The time delay to the linear reflector suggests a depth of 1.5-2.5 km. From: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Results_from_M <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Nov 30, 2005

Mars Express evidence for large aquifers on early Mars Substantial quantities of liquid water must have been stably present in the early history of Mars. The findings of OMEGA, on board ESA's Mars Express, have implications on the climatic history of the planet and the question of its 'habitability' at some point in its history. These conclusions were drawn thanks to data on Martian surface minerals obtained by OMEGA (Observatoire pour la Mineralogy, l'Eau, les Glaces et l'Activité), the visible and infrared mapping spectrometer on board ESA's Mars Express. From previous observations, Mars must have undergone water-driven processes, which left their signature in surface structures such as channel systems and signs of extensive aqueous erosion. However, such observations do not necessarily imply the stable presence of liquid water on the surface over extended periods of time during the Martian history. Full story here: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Results_from_Mars_Express_and_Huygens/SEMA1UULWFE_0.html Full images with captions: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Results_from_Mars_Express_and_Huygens/SEMA1UULWFE_1.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

JonClarke · Nov 30, 2005

This is all very impressive and exciting since MARSIS was working in a deep sounding mode for only a few weeks before its orbit forced it into a period of daytime observations. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

toymaker · Nov 30, 2005

When will it be able to work again in deep sounding mode ?

centsworth_II · Nov 30, 2005

At the ESA 11/30 briefing, getting back to subsurface operations in the spring was mentioned. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Dec 2, 2005

CO2 in H20 to form H + Olivine = CH4 = liquid water.

centsworth_II · Dec 2, 2005

Of course radar images are more subject to interpretation than optical images, subsurface radar even more so. But that sharp, straight line below the surface, in that buried crater is very provcative. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Dec 2, 2005

for crying out loud, liquid water is at Enceladus. why is such the thought of a thing on Mars so "out of the box?" ???

centsworth_II · Dec 2, 2005

I am hoping for the discovery of liquid water beneath the surface of Mars. No geyser sightings yet, but maybe MARSIS is onto something. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Dec 2, 2005

It's not "out of the box". It is just that it has not been directly seen yet. Until then it is a possibility only. You have been told this before and you will be told it again until it hopefully sinks in. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

robnissen · Dec 2, 2005

In addition, there is NO proof that there is liquid water at Enceladus. There are very interesting pictures and temperature results, and there is certainly the possibility of liquid water, but possibility is not proof. Scientists are looking for proof of liquid water on Mars at Enceladus, hopeful speculation is insufficient for Science.

centsworth_II · Mar 16, 2006

Results from MARSIS survey of the south pole region: Water, water, and more water!!! "...a shift in Mars Express's orbit has allowed MARSIS to probe the planet's south pole. There the buried ice extends down to 3½ kilometers (2 miles) under the cap in some places.... the ice is relatively pure. "There's at most only a few percent of impurities," team coleader Jeffrey Plaut (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) told planetary scientists meeting in Houston this week." "...MARSIS has found multiple layers stacked beneath Dorsa Argentea to depths of up to 500 meters — and if they’re all ice, they represent a reservoir large enough to cover the entire planet with water to a depth of about 10 meters (30 feet)." http://skyandtelescope.com/news/article_1695_1.asp <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Mar 16, 2006

Fantastic news! Mars polar stations sound better and better! Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

telfrow · Mar 16, 2006

Great news! Doesn't the quote concerning covering the entire planet to a depth of about 30 feet seem support the evidence of "shallow seas" Spirit and Opportunity have found? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

centsworth_II · Mar 16, 2006

"...the implication of a martian surface frozen down at least a few kms. is a tough issue to overcome. This does NOT bode well for life on Mars." -- stevehw33 A couple of points: First, finding tons of water frozen near the south pole does not eliminate the possibility of finding water in other areas. Areas where the water may also be frozen, or not. Second, there is a depth on Mars as on Earth where it will be TOO HOT for life as we know it to exist. But between this depth and the frozen surface will be a temperate zone. The odds of there being water present in this temperate zone are beginning to look good. Note: I am making no claim of life on Mars, only pointing out that the odds look good for the existence of a subsurface zone of liquid water. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Mar 16, 2006

"In addition, there is NO proof that there is liquid water at Enceladus." -- RobNissen Well... maybe SOME proof...now.<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Mar 16, 2006

"for crying out loud, liquid water is at Enceladus. why is such the thought of a thing on Mars so 'out of the box?'???" -- bonzelite There is no liquid water laying around on the surface of Enceledus, or Mars. On that I will agree with stevehw33. Transient liquid water on Mars? Maybe. Liquid water beneath the surface of Mars is beginning to look quite possible. bonzelite, you are cheating yourself. While the rest of us rejoice in this new found discovery, you sit, unmoved, because you "knew it all along". Your excitement comes from believing amazing things, many of which will turn out not to be true. An empty kind of excitement if you ask me. I get as excited as any thinking about possibilities. But I reserve my true sense of thrill for realities. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

chew_on_this · Mar 16, 2006

the implication of a martian surface frozen down at least a few kms. is a tough issue to overcome. This does NOT bode well for life on Mars. What a stick in the mud. You must be a hoot to party with. A smiley for no life? I guess your agenda is pretty clear now.

JonClarke · Mar 16, 2006

New Scientist too. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

cosmictalk · Mar 20, 2006

There is most likely liquid water on mars in my opinion but what could come from just water, unless we're thinking the premordial soup and life originating from it! in that case could we take the attitude of parents watching life starting a new elsewhere? or am I really that off on this?

centsworth_II · Mar 20, 2006

If life ever did arise on Mars, it most likely would have done so close to 4 billion years ago, about the same time as on Earth. Conditions were surely much different on Mars then, as they were on Earth. The importance of finding liquid water on Mars today would be in the possibility that if life ever did occur on Mars, it may survive to this day in deep martian aquifers. The hope is not to find conditions on Mars in which life could arise, but to find conditions allowing life , if it ever did exist on Mars, to hang on. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Mar 20, 2006

There is no liquid water laying around on the surface of Enceledus, or Mars. On that I will agree with stevehw33. Transient liquid water on Mars? Maybe. Liquid water beneath the surface of Mars is beginning to look quite possible. i forgot about this thread. "there is no liquid water laying around on the surface" --- /> i never really thought there was. it's spraying out from the interior ---somehow. i'm more inclined to believe liquid water exists subsurface at Encel than Mars at this point, but it may very well be subsurface in both worlds. truth is stranger than fiction in the cosmos. there may be much more than just liquid water in this martian mystery tour. While the rest of us rejoice in this new found discovery, you sit, unmoved, because you "knew it all along". right. i don't rejoice when unwarranted skepticism gives way to a revelation that the skepticism was unwarranted, particularly when i knew all along the skepticism was unwarranted. Your excitement comes from believing amazing things, many of which will turn out not to be true. An empty kind of excitement if you ask me. yes and no. yes to excitement about amazing things. no about many of which ought not be true. many of it will be true, far offsetting that which is not to ever be. i don't know everything, all truths, nor claim this position. as well, my imagination does not preclude off-the-wall conceptualizing as a seed of genius to garner the truth. i am a truth seeker through my creative imagination and intuition. einstein said "imagination is more valuable than knowledge." naysaying over very possible realities is a negative position and only stilfles progress as far as i am concerned. my excitement is a far cry from empty, sir. i can guarantee you that. my imagination would, symbolically speaking, blow your head off.

centsworth_II · Mar 20, 2006

"...i create the realities from dust in a malestrom that will rip your mind asunder." Ahh! I get it now. I cling frightfully to my sanity while you have fearlessly embraced insanity.<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I will turn to the artist to explore the depths of imagination. I will turn to the scientist to explore the depths of reality. Of course there is overlap, but you seem to be endorsing art-to-the-exclusion-of-science. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bonzelite · Mar 20, 2006

Of course there is overlap, but you seem to be endorsing art-to-the-exclusion-of-science. well, no, but you're a good sport <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> there is overlap, yes. but if you have been reading my posts here and there, i endorse science. i do not buy all that is officially decreed, much to the disdain of many. but i am typically a realist and a truth seeker. this is why i enjoy science so much. it was my favorite subject in school. yet much of what i see going on in the sciences is not about the truth whatsoever. today, science, along with much of society, has fully assumed a comfort zone in the realm of the politically correct, often at the expense of the truth. this is my opinion. and i'm not the only one holding this opinion. some professional scientists hold this same view. science has lost it's sense of philosophy --which is what it actually is. today, predominantly math-based science, replete with far-fetched abstract models, has supplanted philosophy and imagination. and that is sinful. but i am now digressing far off-topic. I cling frightfully to my sanity while you have fearlessly embraced insanity YES

centsworth_II · Mar 20, 2006

"Frozen surface down kilometers does NOT bode well for life of any kind. That's an obivous biological fact, which you, of course, blatantly ignore." -- stevehw33 Frozen surface, but the laws of physics virtually REQUIRE Mars to also have a HOT interior. You constantly refuse to address the following simple fact: cold exterior and hot interior REQUIRES that there be a temperate zone between the two. The chance that there is water in this temperate zone looks better with each new discovery. Your argument for no liquid water on (in) Mars is on less sound footing than your argument for no liquid water in Enceladus. And we all know how that turned out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Mars Express uncovers depths of Mars

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