Mars the anomalies The moon too., part II

[agent99]

pierround,<br /><br />No need to get excited! I remember back when nearly everyone was calling people Kooks and believers, tinfoilhatters speaking sycobabble and ufo-speak for saying there's water on Mars. Eg; Harmonicaman for one.<br />Instead of getting upset, just pick things apart. Put it this way, if the "big crash" removed evidence of members peeing on the idea of water on Mars and calling people names, how come it was only that data, and not for example, peoples user accounts at SDC? I mean, did they all have to re-register to get back online here? Nope. <br />Smiles allround!<br />

 

[agent99]

Thanks for the welcome JonClark!<br /><br /><font color="yellow">The Viking images are not TV pictures. They are still images. Furthermore the camera technology is different to conventional TV cameras</font><br /><br />All cameras take pictures wether they are stills or not doesn't matter. It's all about capturing the light for what it is.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Secondly, without calibration colour reconstructions can be wrong</font><br /><br />Sure they can be Jon. But you see, lol, the calibration is done here on earth, not on mars, isn't it now. We can talk about voltages and filters etc for circular reasonings forever.<br />Surely the main point is that our eyes see as they do here on earth, so why would we correct our eyes to see on mars? {Our eyes being the camera}<br />If I setup a camera on dryland and put it in a perspex tank, sealed, and drop it in the deep end of my pool, I wouldn't have to adjust any color because it has allready been done. If I took the same camera tube or CCD or capture device to mars that has already been setup for images on dryland and the bottom of my pool, it would work just fine on Mars. We use our eyes to compare what we see live to that shown on the monitor/still that is being used to show what the camera sees and callibrate accordingly till the camera matches what we see. Then lets send it to Mars. None of this hokeypokey talk required. <br />One concern I would think, assuming Mars has a thin atmosphere, is protecting the camera and film, electronics etc from Radiation, yes?<br /><br />Cumulous clouds on Mars by billslugg?<br /><br />http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=phenomena&Number=754778&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=<br /><br />Oopsies, they're not there!<br />

 

[bobw]

Too bad you are just making all that up. Outer space isn't like your swimming pool.<br /><br />Prediction of viking lander camera image quality<br />http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19760015424_1976015424.pdf<br /><br /><i>The cameras are exposed to a steady flow of neutrons and gamma rays from the lander<br />radioisotope-thermoelectric generator during the nearly year-long cruise from Earth to Mars. <br />Radiation damage by the neutrons degrades the photodiode performance, particularly in the<br />infrared region from 0.8 to 1.1 μm, where the absolute responsivity will be reduced by an<br />estimated 15 to 40 percent and the temperature dependence of the relative responsivity will be<br />increased.</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Sure they can be Jon. But you see, lol, the calibration is done here on earth, not on mars, isn't it now.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Actually, the image calibration is done using data obtained on Mars. Each of the spacecraft carries a set of color samples attached to its exterior in a position where the camera can easily photograph it. Since the "true" color of these samples is known, the pictures taken on Mars of the samples can be used to calibrate the images. These are the Mars science equivalent of the TV test patterns that JonClarke mentioned earlier, and are used in much the same way.<br /><br />As you noted, however, the cameras themselves are calibrated on Earth so that scientists know exactly how they behave and how they will capture images.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>If I setup a camera on dryland and put it in a perspex tank, sealed, and drop it in the deep end of my pool, I wouldn't have to adjust any color because it has allready been done.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Depending on what you're trying to achieve with the camera, you may actually have to recalibrate the images. Water looks clear, but it actually does affect light passing through it. Are you trying to see what it would look like to the unaided eye, or are you trying to tell whether a bunch of loose change dropped in the bottom of the pool is mostly pennies or nickels? In the former case, you don't have to recalibrate the image; you're interested in capturing it as-is. In the latter case, you may want to recalibrate it, since the "true" color of the coins is more important than how they look through the water.<br /><br />So for scientific purposes, recalibrating images can be very important, because you're not so interested in what it looks like to a human explorer, but in what it's made of. The true color is more important than what it looks like after the reflected light has passed thro <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Very nice post CAlli.<br /><br />Draw yourself an extra cheese sandwich out of petty cash<br /><br />Wow, that post ought to get archived!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<br /><i>All cameras take pictures wether they are stills or not doesn't matter. It's all about capturing the light for what it is.</i><br /><br />However the way cameras systems collect, store, and transmit images is very different, and needs to be taken into account.<br /><br /><i>Sure they can be Jon. But you see, lol, the calibration is done here on earth, not on mars, isn't it now. We can talk about voltages and filters etc for circular reasonings forever. </i><br /><br />Calli has explained this much better than I would have. But she is right that colour calibration is done on targets on Mars. All the landers with colour imaging systems have some means of calibrating them on Mars. Viking, MER, etc.<br /><br /><i>One concern I would think, assuming Mars has a thin atmosphere, is protecting the camera and film, electronics etc from Radiation, yes?</i><br /><br />Again, Calli has done a very nice job on this<br /><br />Cumulous clouds on Mars by billslugg? <br /><br />http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=phenomena&Number=754778&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart= <br /><br /><i>Oopsies, they're not there!</i><br /><br />Nope, those were pictures of yardangs. To my knowledge we don't cumlo-nimbus on Mars. I suspect the atmospheric dynamics are wrong.<br /><br /><i>Allways question what your "told".</i><br /><br />But we need to go behind that statement. Why should we question what we are told? <br /><br />I can think of two good reasons. The first is we don't understand the statement, and want more information. The answers should help us understand better what is being said.<br /><br />The second is what we hear does not jell with what we know already. Questioning helps us work out whether the statement is wrong or whether our original understanding was flawed and needs to be c <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Dang.. that's the 900 lb gorilla of "Everything you wanted to know about taking pictures on Mars but were afraid to ask" posts.<br /><br />You don't venture into Phenom often Calli, but when you do you certainly make it worth the trip. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<i>Cumulous clouds on Mars</i><br /><br />Ah, regrettably, no. My recollection is that water vapor plays a much smaller part in Martian Meteorology than Earth. As well, there's far less convection activity that is responsible for the formation of Cumulous clouds. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[3488]

Not just that Yevaud, the atmosphere on Mars is far too thin to support Cumulus clouds.<br /><br />The density of the atmosphere at the datum line on Mars is the same as the Earth's is<br />at 30 KM / 19 miles above sea level. The Earth does not have cumulus clouds forming at that altitude.<br /><br />Worth also bearing in mind that average sunlight intensity at Mars is only 44% as strong <br />as on Earth, so that too will reduce convection.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

All certainly so. The Meteorology of Mars is similar or even identical in some respects to Earth's. It follows the same Scaling Laws. On Mars though, dust and aerosols play an increased role in Martian weather. And because the atmosphere is so thin, the temperature gradient of the surface boundary layer must be steep. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[agent99]

bobw,<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Too bad you are just making all that up</font><br /><br />Now why would I make what up? I don't know what your on about buddy.

 

[agent99]

That was a great post CalliArcale!<br /><br />I think you understand what I was getting at with my simplicity, thankyou <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />When we try and explain things to others that don't have a grasp on what roles voltages etc play with imagery, the reader can become disinterested and bamboozeled by it all. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">Each of the spacecraft carries a set of color samples attached to its exterior in a position where the camera can easily photograph it. Since the "true" color of these samples is known, the pictures taken on Mars of the samples can be used to calibrate the images.</font><br /><br />O.k, letssee if I get this rite. The camera looks at the test colors [R.G.B for example] and is then calibrated by that. So the test card image is viewed back here on a monitor or print to see if RGB is still RGB to us after being sent back. Then the images of Mars are taken and sent back also, but only after checking the RGB test first?<br />***edit***Also, a green card seen here may not look green while on Mars?<br /><br />Here's another point I have arrived at after reading your and JonClarks posts.<br />If we look at a rock on Mars while we are standing on Mars and see with our eyes that this rock is red. Would it still look red when we bring it back to Earth and look at it while standing back on Earth? I realise the atmosphere plays a role in how we see the sun as being yellowish, but in space it is actually greenish? Yes?

 

[agent99]

Jon,<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Nope, those were pictures of yardangs. To my knowledge we don't cumlo-nimbus on Mars. I suspect the atmospheric dynamics are wrong.</font><br /><br />Gosh, I was looking at them the other day, maybe a week ago, and it was posted to show the difference between dust and clouds via satelite images. You could see rounded tops of clouds, the shadows of them, and in one corner up top left, you could see Cirrus like structure from above them as if anvil tops had formed.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">But we need to go behind that statement. Why should we question what we are told?</font><br /><br />My father tought me that when I was a wee nipper. Allways ask your teacher questions, question the answers, don't clam up and just sit there, he'd say.<br />Yes I was a painfull student. Now of corse, it has a greater meaning for me, it's part of my job, Hehehe. <br /><br />

 

[agent99]

Yevaud,<br /><br /><font color="yellow">All certainly so. The Meteorology of Mars is similar or even identical in some respects to Earth's. It follows the same Scaling Laws. On Mars though, dust and aerosols play an increased role in Martian weather. And because the atmosphere is so thin, the temperature gradient of the surface boundary layer must be steep.</font><br /><br />That would explain the rounded tops with flat bases in those clouds I saw. But they also looked very bright, just like they do here from satelite.

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">Gosh, I was looking at them the other day, maybe a week ago, and it was posted to show the difference between dust and clouds via satelite images.</font><br /><br />I don't remember that photo. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">billslugg</font>posted photos of "white spots" and pixels, but no dust/clouds. (A quick search of the forum and all his posts seem to confirm that.) Are you sure it was <font color="yellow">billslugg</font> <font color="yellow">pierround</font>posted a few links to photos "cloud photos."<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[billslugg]

telfrow<br /><br />That is correct, I posted the "white spots" but I was not involved in the Dust vs Cloud discussion.<br /><br />As for questioning: Once posted in a newspaper room:<br /><br />"If your mother tells you she loves you - check it out." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[agent99]

Thanks Mr Telfrow, I'll see if I can't find them and not remark on them anymore. Just kidding with you <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />They must be around, i'll check the suggestion above. Was it "carlstang"? [sp]

 

[agent99]

<font color="yellow">"If your mother tells you she loves you - check it out."</font><br /><br />After watching American news channels, you have to wonder sometimes!

 

[telfrow]

If you're talking about <font color="yellow">Kalstang</font> he hasn't posted anything in this thread, or this forum, dealing with dust or clouds as far as I can determine.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[agent99]

Well, what i might do is go through my browser history files etc and see if that helps me out because i'm stumped on this now. Often, if the settings are correct in IE, you can pull up stuff like that. <br /><br />***Edit*** I just found them, it was JonClark, back afew pages in this thread!

 

[JonClarke]

<i>If we look at a rock on Mars while we are standing on Mars and see with our eyes that this rock is red. Would it still look red when we bring it back to Earth and look at it while standing back on Earth? I realise the atmosphere plays a role in how we see the sun as being yellowish, but in space it is actually greenish? </i><br /><br />This is an interesting question. I suspect not. Remember that the amount of dust in the Martian sky has an effect similar to a terrestrial smog. Enough to but a slight yellowish to orange tint to the light, but proabably not noticeable.<br /><br />During a dust storm (like the one at present) the amount of dust is much greater and things would look much more tinted. I suspect the human eye would adjust , just as it does to coloured glasses or being underwater and people would still be able to see the true colour even when a camera would be overwhelmed by the tint. <br /><br />This is why the landers have colour targets mounted on them, it allows the camera to catch both how things look on the surface and how they would look on Earth. The most extreme example of this was on Vensus, which has a very thick smoggy atmosphere. Everything is very yellow orange but because the Russian landers (Venera 13 and 14) carried calibration targets we are able to see what the scene looked like on the surface and reconstruct what it would have looked like under earthly lighting conditions.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>I just found them, it was JonClark, back afew pages in this thread!</i><br /><br />They weren't cumlo-nimbus then! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[agent99]

What do you think they are Jon?<br />Most of them pictured are rather rounded with dark ground shadows apparent, but just one area in particular shows some bigger than the fair weather cumulous types, or at least what I see as being Mars's version of fair weather clouds.

 

[agent99]

Jon,<br /><br />What type of clouds do you think they are? <br />Maybe I should ask some meteorologists friends or find similar satelite photos showing cumulous clouds found here on Earth as a comparisom.

 

[JonClarke]

Sorry 99, I missed your earlier post.<br /><br />I assume you mean the images of Mars clouds, not the terrestrial ones?<br /><br />There are probably people here who know more about clouds than me, but for what it is worth I suspect that in this post the clouds are equivalent to terrestrial alto cirrius. Is this what you mean? Mars ice crystal (both CO2 and H2O) clouds are either high altitude or ground fogs. There is nothing really like the convective cumulous or cumlo-nimbus clouds on Earth. Even at ground level, the atmosphere of Mars is more like the terrestrial stratosphere than the troposphere.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>