Mars water was very salty

[richalex]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>there is no reason whatsoever to expect that any possible martian life would be based upon earth life biochemistry, and its limitations.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>I think that physics is going to put limits on what can happen. In any event, we have no reason to expect life to vary significantly from what we find on Earth; all Earth life requires water (liquid water if I recall correctly) to function. If you want to get away from that, then you need chemistry that is compatible with the new system. You can't just say, "Life will find a way," as a basis for looking for life. Without lots and lots of interdependent chemistry, you won't have biological life. <br /><br />I don't expect to find any life or past life on Mars, because I don't believe that life can form spontaneously. We only have evidence for life on Earth. I'm hoping that an extensive search for life on Mars forces evolutionary biologists to re-examine their assumptions about the formation of life.

 

[nimbus]

<font color="orange">I don't believe that life can form spontaneously.</font><br />What do you mean? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[marsbug]

Hello every body, some numbers for comparison, when the paper becomes available;<br />Extreme halophiles can grow in solutions at up 32% Na Cl. Extreme acidophiles can grow at PH as low as 0, and have been found close to areas with Ph as low as -3.5

 

[robnissen]

"I don't believe that life can form spontaneously. <br />What do you mean?"<br /><br />I believe that's a code word for creation. But I often wonder why creationest don't believe there could be life on other planets. Certainly if God created life on earth, he (she?) could create it elsewhere. If he didn't create it elsewhere, he is awfully inefficient. Why bother creating trillions of galaxies with trillions of trillions of planets, just to put life on one planet?

 

[silylene old]

<font color="black">silylene: there is no reason whatsoever to expect that any possible martian life would be based upon earth life biochemistry, and its limitations.</font><br /><br /><br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br /><font color="yellow">I think that physics is going to put limits on what can happen. In any event, we have no reason to expect life to vary significantly from what we find on Earth; all Earth life requires water (liquid water if I recall correctly) to function. If you want to get away from that, then you need chemistry that is compatible with the new system.</font><br /><br />I never said that hypothetical martian life wouldn't require water. I think it would. Please don't imply what I said incorrectly.<br /><br />What I do think is that hypothetical martian life could be based upon other organic chemistries involving water that do not require the same enzymes, amino acids, same sugars, same protein structures in cell walls, DNA coding, same mitochrondia, ATP, same chlorophyll, etc, etc that are so familiar with on earth. And as a consequence, martian biochemistries would have differing chemical limitations than earthly biochemistries.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">I don't believe that life can form spontaneously.</font> If not spontaneous then what? Supernatural creation of life? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[richalex]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I don't believe that life can form spontaneously. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />What do you mean? <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I believe that's a code word for creation. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>My statement includes creation, but is not a direct reference to it. Taken at face value, my statement means nothing more than natural processes by themselves--without intervention from existing life forms of some sort--are not capable of forming biological life. <br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>But I often wonder why creationest don't believe there could be life on other planets.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Some do. I don't, because I have no reason to believe that biological life exists elsewhere. If evidence presents itself that contradicts my opinion, I will change my opinion. As I say, though, what little evidence I have says that biological life is unique to Earth. <br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Certainly if God created life on earth, he (she?) could create it elsewhere. If he didn't create it elsewhere, he is awfully inefficient. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Now, *that's* an anthropomorphic view! That's basing the value of planets on your own value system. <br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Why bother creating trillions of galaxies with trillions of trillions of planets, just to put life on one planet?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>God is infinite, so we cannot adequately describe His motives, but I would make the analogy of a king who builds a palace consisting of more than a single, sparely-furnished room. Another analogy that I might make is after-birth, though that is a bit more obscure.

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"...my statement means nothing more than natural processes by themselves--without intervention from existing life forms of some sort--are not capable of forming biological life."</font><br /><br />So how were those "existing life forms" created?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[richalex]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>So how were those "existing life forms" created?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>That is a completely different subject. I have made no secret of the fact that I am a Creationist, and so I believe that life is created supernaturally. But, if we as humans ever have the power to create a living cell, it will be through a planned approach, not through simulation of natural processes and environments.

 

[richalex]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>What I do think is that hypothetical martian life could be based upon other organic chemistries involving water that do not require the same enzymes, amino acids, same sugars, same protein structures in cell walls, DNA coding, same mitochrondia, ATP, same chlorophyll, etc, etc that are so familiar with on earth. And as a consequence, martian biochemistries would have differing chemical limitations than earthly biochemistries.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>What remains to be demonstrated is that such alternatives as would be necessary are even workable, and that depends on physics (chemistry).

 

[h2ouniverse]

Hi Jon,<br /><br />I share your frustration.<br /><br />Btw even if the generalization was OK (and this is a big if), I don't understand either what it proves. Should Earth's oceans dry out, visitors to dessicated Earth would find huge salt deposits on the floors. And alteration of rocks consistent with ever increasing salinity rates. So what? What does it says about the initial salinity?<br />I am curious to know how they have inferred the initial salinity of the oceans (or seas? or lakes?). The martian coastline of this era isn't even known!!!

 

[15203700700579]

From a truly religious standpoint would God put life on another planet. And if you believe the Big Bang the coincidence is improbable. So it leaves us to wonder what if there wasn't water on mars? It is possible.

 

[nexium]

Assuming you ment the first sentence to be a question; I think God would put life in His image and likeness on many planets.<br />All but surely, there was and is water on Mars. Some, perhaps not a lot of water. Some comets that contained water have (all but surely) impacted Mars. Neil

 

[richalex]

Mars has enough water to cover the entire surface to a depth of at least 7 feet. We know of that much water ice. We may find much more.

 

[alokmohan]

There is so much fascination for mars.NASA may not find budget problem as public has been motivated.

 

[JonClarke]

<i> am curious to know how they have inferred the initial salinity of the oceans (or seas? or lakes?). The martian coastline of this era isn't even known!!!</i><br /><br />Exactly - we know what the salinity ended up like, but don't know what it started out as. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Jon,<br /><br />Surely it would be possible to determine where a shore line was? <br /><br />I suppose is it not that easy after 3.8 GY????<br /><br />The salty deposits reveal how much salt there was, but not how diluted it was.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew<br /><br />Some people think they have bound the shorelines of the Boreal ocean, of course. But shoreline deposits can get eroded away or buried.<br /><br />So it can be challenging!<br /><br />26 and 40 My marine shorelines on the edge of the Nullarbor http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-30.297018,132.269897&spn=2.181655,4.328613&t=h&z=8 (there are two of them running diagonally from top left to bottom right).<br /><br />15 My lake shorelines near Andamooka http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-30.127312,136.686401&spn=0.546376,1.082153&t=h&z=10 (there are lots of them, running top to bottom and slightly convex to the right).<br /><br />0-1.5 My marine shorelines near Kingston http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-36.501909,140.108643&spn=0.507794,1.082153&t=h&z=10 (parallel to modern shoreline, getting older inland).<br /><br />Tricky, aren't they? Imagine what they would look like after a billion years (or three).<br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[marsbug]

Mars has vast amounts of ice, and very tiny amounts of liquid water could form today, as thin films ( a few microns thick) on the surfaces of mineral grains and between ice crystals. Such films have been known to sustain life, on the very small scale, but this constrains any martian life to a group called polyextremophiles- microbes that are resistant to more than one type of extreme condition, in this case salinity, acidity, and low temperatures. I personally dont see why god wouldn't have put life anywhere it could make a home, although mars may prove not to be on that list.

 

[3488]

Thank you very much Jon.<br /><br />Yes, the ancient shorelines are descernable, but to the untrained eye, would be <br />near on impossible.<br /><br />The middle link you provided, really shows how the lake shrank in stages.<br /><br />I will look again later when I am at home, but those are nice links that you have provided.<br /><br />I agree, to try & see something similar on Mars IMO must be next to impossible, <br />under all of that dust (see how dusty MER A Spirit has become after only 4 years, <br />despite multiple wind gust cleanings), not to mention impact cratering destroying a lot of <br />evidence.<br /><br />Phoenix is due to land in May, within the suspected ancient Boreal Ocean & will be very<br />interesting to compare with MER B Opportunity.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Appros the proposed Martian shorelines, they were all identified on Viking images, but when looked at using MOC they did not appear to have shoeline features.<br /><br /><br />Hwever the features I linked to also cease to look like shorelines when looked at with MOC resolution. It is only from a combination of large scale imagery elevation data, and outcrop scale studies that you can confirm these are shorelines. This is especially true of the Nullarbor ones which are now blanketed with dunes and have no natural exposure. And yes, I have been to all of these sites <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[richalex]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The salty deposits reveal how much salt there was, but not how diluted it was.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>This is speculation on my part, but I would expect that mineral formations might clue us how salty the water was.

 

[JonClarke]

They show how salty the water became, not how salty it was to start with. The Jordan river is fresh enough to rink where it flows into the Dead Sea (not that you would not to, its horribly polluted), but the water of the Dead Sea is precipitating halite and ~10X saltier than the sea.<br /><br />The salt mineralogy does tell you about the composition of the solutes and how the brine evolved chemically, however.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[franontanaya]

Looking at the other side of it, if teenager-Mars' water was salty, then it would have remained liquid at a wider temperature range. Where Mars was too cold, this could have been good for life, not bad. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

Also.... Mars would probably have had polar ice caps and glaciers<br />of mostly fresh water for much of it's history. A water cycle which<br />consisted of constant melting and replenishing of those fresh water<br />sources would have maintained at least local environments low<br />in salt content. <br /><br />It will be interesting to see the salinity and acidity of the<br />sub surface environment that will be studied by Phoenix<br />starting in about three months.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Borman<br /><br />Off hand I would say no. Subsurface water tend to react with their host aquifers and pick up solutes. The older the water the more salts.<br /><br />That said, the modeling by Jennifer Heldmann suggests that the water that formed the gullies was very fresh. maybe that was from buried snow melt, may freezing of saline water produced segreations of purer ice which then re-melted, I don't know. But if the gullies (some of which from their sinuous channel forms must be the result of water I would have expected the most recent ones to have white saltr deposits associated with them, if the water was saline.<br /><br />It's all very intriguing.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>