Martian ice --snowmobiles possible? skiing?

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

bonzelite

Guest
would there be any chance for powdery ice on mars, like snow, in any of the exposed ice fields? furthermore, where is the greater concentration of water ice? north or south? i cannot recall. <br /><br />i ask because perhaps the ice caps in winter could be traversed cross-country style with skis or skates or snowmobiles. <br /><br />as well, would dry ice be ice skatable? or would it be too hard? <br />
 
Y

yellow1173

Guest
Even if there was powdery ice, only your snowmobile idea would work. Skis and skates would require too much effort by a human just to stand up. Even if there is a comfortable space suit oxygen still weighs which would extremely limit the possibilities of skis and skates.
 
S

silylene old

Guest
Snowmobiles have internal combustion engines, which require oxygen, something nearly non-existant in the Martian atmosphere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
of course. i'd never assume a martian snowmobile would ever use conventional earth-based combustion. there are a myriad other means to attain forward motion. i'm concerned with the density and porosity of the ice.
 
S

silylene old

Guest
Well then, they wouldn't work very well. Ice is no longer slippery below -35C. In fact snow surfaces are "sandlike" below -46C. http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~hsalmun/ice_phy2day.pdf <br /><br />The Martian poles are quite cold. And there are no fields of snow in the comparatively balmy martian temperature and equitorial zones.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
then this is the answer i'm seeking. <br /><br />snowballs, then, would be out of the question in any martian context, probably. yes?
 
S

silylene old

Guest
Yep. Snow won't pack when it's too cold. At very cold temperatures, ice crystals become extremely hard. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
like on Titan, for example, water ice is more like metal. <br /><br />so not even skating could be done, then, on Mars?
 
S

silylene old

Guest
Skates hardly slide below -35C. Read the link I posted above. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
 
P

Philotas

Guest
<font color="yellow">Well then, they wouldn't work very well. Ice is no longer slippery below -35C. In fact snow surfaces are "sandlike" below -46C.</font><br /><br />That`s true for water ice, but I can`t imagine it being the case with CO2 ice , or dry ice if you like. And dry ice is the only ice on Mars that can be 'fluffy', or at least it would make up />95% of it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
is there any way possible to force the dry ice to melt and become liquid, even if it is ever so briefly liquid, and then to gas --even in the martian near vacuum? in other words, could the blades or skis be heated to a discreet temperature to melt the CO2 ice to provide a thin film of surface liquid for the skates or skis to overcome surface friction?<br /><br />
 
Y

yurkin

Guest
For a snowmobile there wouldn’t be much point since you could just use a quad and have fun on that.<br /><br />For skiing it could still work. You can go downhill skiing on sand. You just have to have real good wax on your ski. <br /><br />But I got an idea from reading that article. You could have heated ski’s that “melt” the sand like snow into snow like snow. Heated ice-skates might work also, but there may be other factors that make that impossible.<br />
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
i suggested heated blades in my post just before yours <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />
 
C

centsworth_II

Guest
<font color="yellow">"In fact snow surfaces are "sandlike" below -46C."</font><br /><br />Sandboarding anyone? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
P

Philotas

Guest
<font color="yellow">is there any way possible to force the dry ice to melt and become liquid, even if it is ever so briefly liquid, and then to gas --even in the martian near vacuum? in other words, could the blades or skis be heated to a discreet temperature to melt the CO2 ice to provide a thin film of surface liquid for the skates or skis to overcome surface friction? <br /></font><br /><br />I imagine so. If you add some extra weight to your equipment, it would probably work better, and the CO2 would stay liquid for a <i>little</i> longer.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
so simple friction across the frozen CO2 would create enough heating to ever so slightly liquify the surface --that actually makes sense. would it melt fast enough as the skater went along? that is the question. in other words, would the skater just glide along unaided, provided enough weight to create enough friction/heat? and would they maintain their speed and be able to go faster and slower and still have the film of liquid be present? or is the opportunity for this very narrow? <br /><br />now i need a math person to calculate friction coefficient of dry ice into melting point of frozen CO2 to liquid in martian atmospheric pressure at the north pole (lowlands = greater air density) and south (less air density) --versus 33% earth gravity. or something like that, to come up with "at Vastitas Borealis, a skater weighing 300kg at 10 to 30km/h will melt dry ice to a film of liquid directly under the blades....etc etc etc..." i have no idea how to conceptualize and set up such an equation. but i know it is doable. it's probably fairly easy. <br /><br />if the ice is indeed sandlike in it's texture, then the prior poster is on to something cool with the wax idea for skiing! it would be just like on earth, then. in either case, it seems skiing and skating are both plausible. you could have the coolest advertising for wax products in this scenario. "toko jetstream glide --mars proven"
 
P

Philotas

Guest
<font color="yellow">would it melt fast enough as the skater went along? that is the question. in other words, would the skater just glide along unaided, provided enough weight to create enough friction/heat? and would they maintain their speed and be able to go faster and slower and still have the film of liquid be present? or is the opportunity for this very narrow? </font><br /><br />We should have a comment from a physicist on this, as would really like skiing on Mars in the near future. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />I beleive weight is the most important factor, because the skiis provides their own pressure wich might keep CO2 liquid in itself(as the skiis/skates passes over), so I think it might be possible. <br />I`m wondering that if you are provided with enough weight, you could be skiing on atmosphere-less objects like Rhea, Europa and so on, if the surface temperature is higher than 35 centigrades(for water ice at least). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
yes. that'd be very interesting. this is the area where my conceptual ideas sort of get put on hold until an actual scientist can work out what is actually doable, or at least plausible. i am personally unaware of the actual physical parameters involved in low air density, dry-ice surface properties under friction. my hunch tells me that going from solid to liquid then to gas IS plausible on mars. even if the moment of liquification is extremely short-lived. <br /><br />help anyone?
 
S

silylene old

Guest
<font color="yellow">I beleive weight is the most important factor, because the skiis provides their own pressure wich might keep CO2 liquid in itself(as the skiis/skates passes over), so I think it might be possible.</font><br /><br />*not possible*<br /><br />CO2 won't liquify on Mars under a ski. Why?<br /><br />1) Increasing the pressure would only help moreso to keep CO2 in the solid state. Look at the attached phase diagram. Imagine a temperature of -80C. Increasing the pressure will only help maintain the CO2 in a solid state. Same is true at 0C.<br /><br />2) Warming solid CO2 will only produce a gas (sublimation) at the pressures the CO2(s) would experience on Mars. The pressure under a ski is about 0.025 atmosphere (assuming a 75 kg person's weight is spread evenly over 2 skis). Keeping the pressure fixed at 0.025 atm, and increasing the temperature due to friction, you can see that solid CO2 would directly form gaseous CO2.<br /><br />But what could you do?<br />Notice that at a pressure between 6 atm to 10 atm, at a temp between -50 to -30C, that CO2(s) transitions to CO2(liq) by heating. So if you had an ice skate with artifically heated blades, and the pressure under the skate blades was about 6 atm, then you could skate on liq CO2 (as long as the blade did not warm above about -30C). <br /><br />A 75 kg person could skate using special skates that had blades about 6 cm2 in area each, in which the blades were warmed thermostatically between -50 to -30C, while the outdoor Martian temperature was below -50C. <font color="red">(you know, I should've patented this idea)</font><br /><br />Phase diagrams can be your friend!<br />(whoever said college thermodynamics wasn't useful?) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
silylene, this is exactly what i was looking for. i knew somehow it was possible. the phase diagram is very useful in this case. and your insight is spot-on.
 
D

dragon04

Guest
You could get some serious air hitting a Martian Mogul. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>
 
B

bonzelite

Guest
and imagine the giant ski jump event. the skier would remain airborne for probably several minutes, clocking immense distances. .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts