Martians Worship Sun ! Tell NASA imbeciles...

[yevaud]

Hey Jatslo - see now why people like me get pissy here and there? Extrasense goes right past the posted challenge / deconstruction, and acts as if it NEVER HAPPENED. And then posts all about how correct he is, and how he's "proven his ideas"<br /><br />But never actually proves a damned thing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Oh, I see serial numbers, my bad.<br /><br />2005-03-07-2P163473394EFFA808P2374R1M1

 

[jatslo]

Why does he need to prove his hypothesis? Here is another pick:

 

[jatslo]

Something about that rock that looks weird.

 

[odysseus145]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Why does he need to prove his hypothesis?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />That sentence pretty much sums up uplink's recent intellectual decline. With any luck the new moderation will clean things up a bit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jatslo]

odysseus145 said, "<font color="gold">That sentence pretty much sums up uplink's recent intellectual decline. With any luck the new moderation will clean things up a bit.</font>"<br /><br />The following is good advice that I would like to pass onto you, and I want you to pay special attention to the term "Prove":<br /><br /><i>OK, you have formed a hypothesis. An idea if you will. <br />Believe me, that is both the easy and the hard part. <br /><br />It is hard in that it is creative, but also requires understanding. It is easy in that it is, at this point, just an idea. Many people come up with ideas. What takes an idea from the easy regime to the special regime, and into the rarified air of a theory is what follows: <br /><br />You have to start thinking about how to either look at existing data, or think of experiments that would provide evidence that support or not support your hypothesis. (Note I did not say "<b>prove</b>" - seeking to <b>prove</b> something shows a bias that make your thinking questionable) <br /><br />Now, for your specific example, one potential place to look at the data is in the area of neutrinos. You have to understand for your process exactly what flavor of neutrino you expect to see, and at what rates. <br /><br />Neutrinos also are one area that is still somewhat of a problem for the standard solar model. Observations of solar neutrino flux (A cousin of mine spent years in deep Russian mines doing neutrino counting work) have shown a flux that is one the order of 3 too low. <br />The hard part of dealing with this is of course that there are still subtlies in neutrino lifetimes that need to be addressed. <br /><br />Now, what I have talked about takes a lot of work. When I point it out, most recoil at the notion, because this is a different, in some ways less satisfying than simply stating ideas. It requires a discipline and a true devotion to establishing the veracity of the idea. A discipline to understand what data is available, and understand wha</i>

 

[yevaud]

You will now please explain when you have actually conformed to Dr. Wayne's stated scientific principle's, Jatslo.<br /><br />I rather doubt you can. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

I did a synopsis last week, does that count? The picture was posted, and a perception drawn, and that constitutes a hypothesis, which generally begins with a thesis statement. Would you prefer that I get out the encyclopedia for you, as well?

 

[yevaud]

Why no. What I would "prefer" is that you - and Extrasense - not just look at pictures that resemble a shape, and then cut right to a theory. Which is all that has been done.<br /><br />Whoopy-doo. The rock - and it is a rock, nothing more - has a vaguely triangular shape.<br /><br />Enter Extrasense, who takes that fact, denies any possibility of physical processes that may have caused it, ignores everything we know about Mars (and the utter lack of likelihood of an "Intelligent" civilization there), and just says "It's artificial." <br /><br />No science, no work, no due diligence. Nothing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

He presented a perplexing problem, and a hypothesis; there is no difference between him posting pictures of mars, and rb12 posting pictures of mars. However, this particular thread moved to SETI, and not Phenomena, or Science Fiction. Maybe you would rather have this entire thread deleted, because you disagree?<br /><br />You will fail.

 

[extrasense]

Yevaud,<br /><br />My hypothesis is that you have no scientific research background, and your statements are groundless nonsense.<br /><br />Could you prove othervise? NO!<br /><br />es<br /><br />

 

[yevaud]

And that statement is why so many people are wary of debating you. You clearly don't understand.<br /><br />A hypothesis is: <b>Formulating an idea</b>, determining a series of rigorous tests whereby you may prove or disprove your idea, standards as to how you will go about this. Conducting said experiments, standards as to how those results may or may not conform to your idea. Repeat and repeat and repeat again, until a wealth of experimental data may or may not supprt - or disprove - <b>your idea</b>.<br /><br />I note most of those steps missing here. In fact, all that ES has done - and you agreeing with him - is the two bolded portions above. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Boston University, 1994-1996, Undergraduate in Planetary and Space Science, Physical Geography, minor in computer science. Professional work experience from 1975-2001, including:<br /><br />Programming, various, including the Newton MA school system<br />Radar Technician, US Army<br />Biomedical Engineering, various teaching hospitals<br />Staff, Judson B. Coit Observatory, BU<br />Staff, Center for Advanced Biotechnology, BU<br />Staff, TERRIERS satellite project, Center for Space Physics<br />System's Engineering, Teradyne Corp.<br />QA/QC, Unitrode Corp.<br /><br />Shall I continue? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Recent ES Bad Astronomy Thread, in which he fails to prove a thing, and finally leaves<br /><br />Hmmmm? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

No Yevaud, you are twisting theory into hypothesis:<br /><br />[1] A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.<br /> <br />[2] Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption. <br /><br />[3] The antecedent of a conditional statement.<br /><br />That is it, that is all a hypothesis is.

 

[yevaud]

<i>No Yevaud, you are twisting theory into hypothesis: </i><br /><br />You have that exactly backwards.<br /><br />A hypothesis is merely a statement of an idea, unless rigorous tests are conducted to determine if said idea conforms to said experimental reality.<br /><br />Where is the experimentation here? There is none. ES takes the idea and jumps to a stated theory, <b>without any experimentation in between.</b> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Hello???? I quoted the dictionary. There is more to a theory than just theory and hypothesis: Name one other, I do not think that you can?

 

[extrasense]

Your list proves that you even do not know what scientific <b>research</b> is.<br /><br />What have you discovered, personally?<br /><br />Be as precise as you can <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />es<br />

 

[yevaud]

1. The idea.<br />2. The hypothesis, which must meet some known scientific standards.<br />3. A series of rigorous experiments that the investigator hopes will prove his/her hypothesis.<br />4. Methods to be used, and controls to prevent extraneous data or results.<br />5. Expected results, and how they will meet the stated hypothesis.<br />6. Analysis How those results do or do not match the hypothesis.<br />7. Repeat.<br /><br />Now let's see here....<br /><br />Extrasense has done the following:<br /><br />1. The idea. Fine.<br />2. The hypothesis, of which ES's meets no standards.<br />3. No experimentation whatsoever.<br />4. No methodology and no controls.<br />5. Yes, expected results, which are based on nothing.<br />6. Analysis of results, yes, but again based on nothing but opinion.<br />7. Repetition, but only in constantly repeating what he "thinks" said rocks represent. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

Excuse me, he posted a picture, and an assumption based on his individual perceptions; that constitutes a real E.T. hypothesis, and you know damn well that it does. This is just some psychology experiment to you, I know how you think.

 

[yevaud]

<i>What have you discovered, personally?</i><br /><br />That there are a lot of untrained, opinionated, arrogant and vocal sophists out there, who take a wild-ass idea, perform no experimentation, cut right to the declaration of certitude, and won't go away. <br /><br />I note you have never stated any CV for yourself. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[jatslo]

He deserves the same respect that you are giving to me.

 

[extrasense]

You rules must let any idiot to make discoveries, must not they? Why then you have not made a single one?<br />

 

[jatslo]

You deserve a chance, to be right, just like anyone else.

 

[yevaud]

They aren't "my" rules. They're the one's used by the scientific community.<br /><br />"Any idiot," eh?<br /><br />That comment shows your true colors, doesn't it? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>