M
MannyPim
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So apparently, despite your claim that Cheney has dangeorus ideas, the only real beef you seem to have with him, which is even close to being based on fact, is that he didn't fight in Vietnamn....
So, in addition to violating forum rules by posting thinly disguised profanity, you effectively admit you don’t have a clue about the situation. Way to go.Gravity_Ray":2qruc7xw said:Anybody that dodges the draft is a [profanity deleted] coward, so yes if Obama dodges the draft then he is a [profanity deleted] coward. Every coward always has a valid reason for being a coward, its called cowardice
mental_avenger":2faqctol said:Now, are you calling me a coward?
MannyPim":2faqctol said:So apparently, despite your claim that Cheney has dangeorus ideas, the only real beef you seem to have with him, which is even close to being based on fact, is that he didn't fight in Vietnamn....
Now who is the coward, afraid to answer my direct question with a direct answer? I put it into context and asked a direct question based upon that context. The fact is that you are afraid to make a direct answer because it would mean either changing your irrational original statement, or effectively calling thousands of men who served bravely in the military, cowards. So you weasel out and do neither, and instead you dodge the question and try to turn it around.Gravity_Ray":1121dfzj said:Only you know that about yourself MA, I never said that about you, but if you feel the shoe fits its upto you to wear it or not.
The transmission was clear, the problem must be with the receptor. It was all quite relevant to the discussion and in response to your comments.Gravity_Ray":19ri5fgx said:Your 3rd post is rather confusing and I am not sure what you’re trying to say? Most of your 2nd post was irrelevant and rather confusing as well, until you got to a simple question:
No, you did not. All you said was “I never said that about you” I provided context and asked again. You dodged the question.Gravity_Ray":19ri5fgx said:You asked me if I was calling you a coward? You asked a question, and I answered it.
I was not responding to some other post. In the post I replied to, you said, ” Anybody that dodges the draft is a coward”. I responded to that comment.Gravity_Ray":19ri5fgx said:I think you maybe a bit confused here, let me see if I can help you out. I stated in my post that people that did NOT serve their country at a time of need were cowards.
That is a direct contradiction. Mr. Cheney served his country during several times of crisis. Starting in 1969, Mr. Cheney continuously served his country in Congress, in the White House, as Secretary of Defense, and as Vice President.Gravity_Ray":19ri5fgx said:Therefore people that served their country in any capacity when their country needed them are obviously NOT cowards.
Mr. Cheney did not serve his country at a time of crises therefore he is a coward.
Again, your comments which I responded to were ” Anybody that dodges the draft is a coward” and ”Anybody that dodges the draft is a [profanity deleted] coward”, two comments which showed your ignorance of the draft and how various people dealt with it. I took exception to your comments because you were effectively calling a lot of brave men, cowards.Gravity_Ray":19ri5fgx said:Rather elementary. Everything else is outside of the scope of this simple comment.
Gravity_Ray":2pmp1f9j said:mental_avenger":2pmp1f9j said:Now, are you calling me a coward?
Only you know that about yourself MA, I never said that about you, but if you feel the shoe fits its upto you to wear it or not.
MannyPim":2pmp1f9j said:So apparently, despite your claim that Cheney has dangeorus ideas, the only real beef you seem to have with him, which is even close to being based on fact, is that he didn't fight in Vietnamn....
Manny a coward IS dangerous. Remember, its the scared dog that bites.
mannypim":29sw9nsm said:So, if he had served in Vietnam, you would be ok with Cheney ???
mental_avenger":29sw9nsm said:GR has a rather harsh attitude about this. I wonder if his age has something to do with it.
Gravity Ray, how old are you?
Gravity_Ray":2dg50624 said:mannypim":2dg50624 said:So, if he had served in Vietnam, you would be ok with Cheney ???
Manny if this, then that, if that, then this. If pigs had wings they would certainly fly. There are many ifs in life, many forks in the road. The character of a man is determined by the road he takes. If he would have chosen a different road? Who knows. By the way just one question mark would have achieved your aim.
mental_avenger":2dg50624 said:GR has a rather harsh attitude about this. I wonder if his age has something to do with it.
Gravity Ray, how old are you?
MA
What is it with you and all the quotes and the consternation you are going through? Maybe you need a nap. I made a simple statement of how I feel about Mr. Cheney and it seems you are about to have a conniption. He is a coward, as simple as that.
Its like the sun is shinning outside and I say its day light, and you say not only is it night, but you have to apologize for saying its day light!
Look, you don’t have to go away angry, but its time you walked away from this issue, because nothing you say will change my mind about how I feel about a person that is so obviously a coward.
Age has nothing to do with how a person feels about things. Don’t assume because you are older or younger than somebody that your opinions have more merit, that’s just silly.
mental_avenger":5xl0boru said:...it seems probable that Cheney was originally intending to serve as an officer, a college degree being required for that. Later, with a family on the way and more education...
mannypim":5xl0boru said:...the only thing you can fault Cheney for is for not fighting in Vietnam...
Your argument is invalid because it consists of the Logical Fallacy of Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.Gravity_Ray":enfb42tc said:October 26th 1965, the Selective Service declares that married men without children, who were previously exempted from the draft, will now be called up. Married men with children remain exempt.
July 28th 1966, Elizabeth Cheney is born.
What do you know about it? Were you drafted? Were you ever eligible for the draft?Gravity_Ray":enfb42tc said:I’m not holding Dick Cheney at fault here; I am saying that because he dodged serving his country at a time of need he is a coward.
mental_avenger":2uveol8g said:Your argument is invalid because it consists of the Logical Fallacy of Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.
Gravity_Ray":sc6l1vd2 said:mannypim":sc6l1vd2 said:...the only thing you can fault Cheney for is for not fighting in Vietnam...
I’m not holding Dick Cheney at fault here; I am saying that because he dodged serving his country at a time of need he is a coward. Because he is a coward is not the reason he is dangerous, he is dangerous because he keeps advocating preemptive strikes against oil rich countries in the Middle East, in order for his company to make more money. He is dangerous because he has no compunction about sending our kids to war to die, but because he is a coward he would not go to war himself.
mental_avenger":3skcllie said:Before making any more irresponsible harsh personal judgments, you might want to consider that your freedom to do so without fear of reprisal was paid for by George W Bush, John Kerry, Dick Cheney, I ...
MannyPim":2aa5vvgt said:Additionally, your claim that he is casual about sending troops to war, is another of your assertions made in a vacuum. It is possible to send troops to war and to agonize over the decision and be very concerned about placing the lives of American soldiers on the line...
How about obama taking months and months to reach a decision on Afghanistan ( a decision that he had already told us he had mande back in MArch or 09) even as the dithering was emboldening the taliban and costing American lives every day.... ? Now THAT is a clear example of someone who is cavalier about the lives of our soldiers....
Gravity_Ray":nrw7m146 said:MannyPim":nrw7m146 said:Additionally, your claim that he is casual about sending troops to war, is another of your assertions made in a vacuum. It is possible to send troops to war and to agonize over the decision and be very concerned about placing the lives of American soldiers on the line...
How about obama taking months and months to reach a decision on Afghanistan ( a decision that he had already told us he had mande back in MArch or 09) even as the dithering was emboldening the taliban and costing American lives every day.... ? Now THAT is a clear example of someone who is cavalier about the lives of our soldiers....
Manny it appears to me that you are allowing your hate for our President to color your judgment in this case. It is always easier it seems, for people like yourself that cannot change to see fault in other people before they see the same fault in themselves.
You say that Mr. Cheney a known coward could have been agonizing about sending the troops to war and in the same sentence you say President Obama does not. American natives called that speaking with a forked tongue.
Meanwhile Mr. Cheney was instrumental to send these troops in harms way, Mr. Obama is just trying to get them out of there with out showing the terrorists that the policies of the last administration failed and we are retreating from the theater of war before our country goes broke.
Not at all. That is a standard Logical Fallacy known as a Causal Fallacy. It essentially means: Concluding that something causes something else simply because it comes after. You assumed that Cheney applied for the last deferment solely because it was enacted.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:Digging deep in the bag for a Latin phrase eh? However, you are misusing it in this case. You would have done better if you had used (Cum hoc ergo prompter hoc). Maybe you should have stayed in school in the 60s yourself.
No, I am not. And I will thank you to not attempt to tell me what I am saying or implying.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:What you are trying to say with Post hoc ergo prompter hoc translated into English as (coincidental correlation) is wrong. Let me put what you are saying in this example: You are implying that I say "Because the Roster crowed before the sunrise I am assuming the sun rises because the roster crows"?
You are taking it out of context. My reply was only to your comment regarding the timing of the birth of his child. That is why I quoted only that comment.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:This isn’t a simple case of coincidental correlation. Mr. Cheney dodged the draft not one time, not two times, not ………….etcetera, etcetera, etcetera
Again, you are making an assumption. The fact is, you have no idea of his motives or other possible factors involved at that time. Once again, you make the mistake of attempting the Logical Fallacy of Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:Mr. Cheney made slight adjustments to his way of life in order to remain just out of reach of the draft. When the draft was limited by an education, he started an education, when it was limited by having children he had a child.
Now you are apparently presuming to know the thinking of the legislators who enacted that bill.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:The deferment was there because in our great country the government allows for certain situations. That is if you find yourself in a situation such as finishing school or if you are a working father and your children need you to provide for them, the government allowed you to defer.
The word deferment itself means to put off until a later time, not; I am not going to serve ever.
You are welcome to your opinion, secured by men such as Cheney, but so far you have not provided any information that indicates you have a valid or relevant basis for that opinion.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:What Mr. Cheney did was not only cowardly, but also showed contempt for the laws of this country and abused the process of deferment, which shows him to be doubly cowardly. He was a coward to not serve and then cowardly in the way he misused this noble process put in place to simply put off the service until other arrangements could have been made.
I dare because I am clearly privy to a LOT more relevant information than you are. Ok, let’s start with John Kerry. Kerry was on the same type ship I was during the same time period. I was in charge of the main battery of the ship, the Terrier Missile System, a two stage long range missile capable of sinking a ship with a single missile. Kerry was in charge of the deck apes (ship maintenance, small boat maintenance, and painting.) I served in that position for 4 years, Kerry served a little over a year. I needed 18 months of intensive training, Kerry’s job didn’t require training. However, I included Kerry because he also served.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:Also it’s pathetic that you use Mr. Kerry as an example of a brave American that served his country in combat as somebody I should be thankful for. Well I am. But this is the same Mr. Kerry that this coward Cheney implied would be a bad commander in chief and was instrumental in swift boating him? How dare you now use Mr. Kerry for this example and put him in the same sentence as Mr. Cheney who is an out an out coward, and Mr. Bush who basically dodged the draft by having his father put him in the National Guard (do you know how few people were allowed in the National Guard at that time?).
More information you are apparently unaware of. (and you can check it out) Kerry applied for Swift Boats when they were restricted to harbor patrol, a really cushy and safe job. While he was in Swift Boat training in the US, those boats were reassigned to the rivers. Kerry served a total of only 80 days on Swift Boats. One of the three purple hearts he used to get out of Vietnam was a small splinter from a grenade he threw into a bin of rice. One of his “wounds” was a 3mm scratch. He had to order the doctor to sign the purple heart document. He was sent back to the US on the three-band-aid-rule. That is your hero.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:But now you are putting yourself in the same sentence as Mr. Kerry who was a decorated Vietnam veteran
I would not compare myself to Kerry as far as honorable service is concerned, because I don’t consider his service to be particularly honorable. However, he did serve, and therefore cannot be called a coward. And since I cannot know all of his motives, I cannot condemn him for his choices. I can, however, honestly and rightfully admonish him for calling himself a hero, under the circumstances.Gravity_Ray":xv44qkby said:Sir, you should be ashamed of yourself. Have you no dignity? Have you no shame? Don’t ever compare yourself to Mr. Kerry; you are not good enough to be in the same sentence as him. Shame on you![/
WOW!!! And this from someone who has been making irresponsible harsh statements about others with little or no actual verifiable facts about those persons.Gravity_Ray":2aexn7sw said:Manny it appears to me that you are allowing your hate for the President of the United States of America to color your judgment in this case. It is always easier it seems, for people like yourself that cannot change to see fault in other people before they see the same fault in themselves.
MannyPim":2k2n4m5p said:All right.... you win... I will stop arguing that you can't read minds... you seem convinced that you can, so from here on I will just allow you to believe that nd I won;t contradict you.
MannyPim":2k2n4m5p said:Since you can read minds, you know that what I feel for obama is hatred....
MannyPim":2k2n4m5p said:we have never met and your direct knowledge of who I am and what I think is limited to a few posts and interchanges here.
MannyPim":2k2n4m5p said:I will just have to accept that you know me much better than even I know myself...
MannyPim":2k2n4m5p said:since you can actually read my mind there is no way you can say that I am applying different standards in this situation....
MannyPim":2k2n4m5p said:that being the case, you must consider the possibility that you are listening with forked ears....
MannyPim":2k2n4m5p said:Mister Cheney was "instrumental".... he merely had an advisory role.... Mr. obama is the "decider".... he is the one who actually sends troops to their deaths.... And of course, since he wants to TAKE OUT the troops, that is why he is SENDING IN 30,000 MORE troops... I suppose that is teh same kind of logic that says global warming causes severe snow storms....
Mental_avenger":a88y4i5s said:However, he (John Kerry) did serve, and therefore cannot be called a coward.