My Mysterious Magnetic Monopole

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why06

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<p>Simple question.</p><p>The movement of electrons generate magnetic fields right? Ok. Then the movements of a hypothetical monopole must generate electric fields. However a monopole has never been found. partly because everytime a magnet is divided up until the size of individual atoms it just forms a new magnetic. So here's my thought:</p><p>We don't just keep cutting a battery in half to find the individual electron of an electric field. So why do we do this with magnetic fields to find the magnetic monopole? Can a magnetic field trigger the movement of electrons? Because if it can then a electrical field should generate the flow of magnetism. It may turn out that we are not looking for a monopole at all just an effect that carries across the magnet from one side to the other and generates an electric field.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>
 
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Mee_n_Mac

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Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Can a magnetic field trigger the movement of electrons? Because if it can then a electrical field should generate the flow of magnetism.&nbsp; <br />Posted by <strong>why06</strong></DIV><br /><br />A changing magnetic feild can cause elctrons to move (see Hoover Dam).&nbsp; Moving electrons will cause an magnetic feild (see electric motors).&nbsp; I'm lost how this applies to "magnetic monopoles". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>-----------------------------------------------------</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, <strong>STOP</strong> !</font></p> </div>
 
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why06

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A changing magnetic feild can cause elctrons to move (see Hoover Dam).&nbsp; Moving electrons will cause an magnetic feild (see electric motors).&nbsp; I'm lost how this applies to "magnetic monopoles". <br /> Posted by Mee_n_Mac</DIV></p><p>I'll clarify.</p><p>what I am saying is that if changing <em>magnetic fields</em> can cause <strong>electrons</strong> to move would not changing <em>electric fields</em> cause the <strong>magnetic monopoles</strong> to move? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'll clarify.what I am saying is that if changing magnetic fields can cause electrons to move would not changing electric fields cause the magnetic monopoles to move? <br />Posted by why06</DIV></p><p>IF magnetic monopoles were to exist then one would expect that Maxwell's equations would be modified to make them completely symmetric with respect to electric charge, magnetic charge, electric current and magnetic current.&nbsp; So the answer to your question would that yes, changing electric fields would be expected to create magnetic currents.</p><p>The major difficulty is that there is no experimental evidence for the existence of magnetic monopoles.&nbsp; From a purely theoretical perspective that is actually a bit surprising.&nbsp; But that is the way it is.&nbsp; Maybe no one has looked in the right place or with the right tools.&nbsp; </p><p>You might want to read Alan Guth's book <em>The Inflationary Universe</em> and the discussion of monopoles in that book.&nbsp; One of the issues confronted by inflation theory is why we don't see magnetic monopoles.&nbsp; </p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_monopole</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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why06

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You might want to read Alan Guth's book The Inflationary Universe and the discussion of monopoles in that book.&nbsp; One of the issues confronted by inflation theory is why we don't see magnetic monopoles. Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>I am trying to find out more about them, because- this is just a hunch- its seems as if magnetic monopole is completely different then an electric charge. I know the heart of discovering a magnetic monopole lies in understanding more as to why a magnet can be split an uncountable number of times and always have two poles.&nbsp;</p><p>To be honest I've always have had a fascination with magnets, but the information I'm gathering about them now seems more and more redundant. I just cant understand anymore about magnets without a proper education in quantum mechanics. I wish I could learn just enough QM to understand the equations of QM and the concepts of spin and what not. I would like to have a little more then a laymen's understanding of magnets, but the barrier of QM prohibits me. What I could really use is a way to teach myself some basic concepts of QM in my free time, but I wouldn't know where to start.</p><p>Could you advise me on a starting place to begin a transition from general physics to quantum mechanics. Because I can't seem to understand how one can get from M*V = F to something like <strong>spin</strong> "which I don't even have the slightest clue of... All I imagine is a little dot like electron spinning around like a top which I know is wrong. "<strong>spin</strong>" can't mean a literal spin?! The closest I've gotten to understanding this is in chemistry class where we talked about how electrons have energy levels in atoms. Should I start there? </p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I am trying to find out more about them, because- this is just a hunch- its seems as if magnetic monopole is completely different then an electric charge. I know the heart of discovering a magnetic monopole lies in understanding more as to why a magnet can be split an uncountable number of times and always have two poles.&nbsp;To be honest I've always have had a fascination with magnets, but the information I'm gathering about them now seems more and more redundant. I just cant understand anymore about magnets without a proper education in quantum mechanics. I wish I could learn just enough QM to understand the equations of QM and the concepts of spin and what not. I would like to have a little more then a laymen's understanding of magnets, but the barrier of QM prohibits me. What I could really use is a way to teach myself some basic concepts of QM in my free time, but I wouldn't know where to start.Could you advise me on a starting place to begin a transition from general physics to quantum mechanics. Because I can't seem to understand how one can get from M*V = F to something like spin "which I don't even have the slightest clue of... All I imagine is a little dot like electron spinning around like a top which I know is wrong. "spin" can't mean a literal spin?! The closest I've gotten to understanding this is in chemistry class where we talked about how electrons have energy levels in atoms. Should I start there? &nbsp; <br />Posted by why06</DIV></p><p>I'm not sure what your actual background&nbsp;in physics is so I will assume nothing.&nbsp; If that is wrong, then just start somewhere farther down the line.&nbsp; </p><p>You will need to know calculus.&nbsp; You cannot do serious physics without it.&nbsp; Here are a few calculus texts, you can pick any of them.&nbsp; But I suggest that you take a class in the subject rather than trying to learn it without a teacher.&nbsp; I suggest that you take that class at a university, as there you will have a better chance of finding a teacher who understands the subject.&nbsp; I will list authors, since the title is almost always <em>Calculus</em>.&nbsp; Apostol, Leithold, Bers, Thomas and Finney.</p><p>Once you understand calculus you can learn physics.&nbsp; Here are some physics texts, in a reasonable order, covering the fundamentals up through introductory quantum mechanics.</p><p>My favorite is <em>The Feynman Lectures on Physics</em> by Richard Feynman.&nbsp; It is in 3 volumes and if you like Feynman's style, you can simply read this set and&nbsp;get a solid background in everything that you need including quantum mechanics.</p><p>If you don't like Feynman's style then a more traditional series might follow these texts:</p><p>Fundamentals of Physics -- Halliday, Resnick and Walker</p><p>Classical Electromagnetic Radiation -- Marion</p><p>Classical Dynamics of Particles and Systems -- Marion</p><p>Mathematical Methods of Physics -- Arfken</p><p>Principles of Modern Physics -- Leighton</p><p>Elementary Quantum Mechanics -- Saxon</p><p>Note that if your interest is in magnetism that it is probably more important to learn something about electromagnetism in the form of Maxwell's equations than to learn quantum mechanics.&nbsp; </p><p>One other very good introduction to electromagnetism is Engineering Electromagnetics by Hayt.</p><p><br /><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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why06

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm not sure what your actual background&nbsp;in physics is so I will assume nothing.&nbsp; If that is wrong, then just start somewhere farther down the line.&nbsp; You will need to know calculus.&nbsp; You cannot do serious physics without it.&nbsp; Here are a few calculus texts, you can pick any of them.&nbsp; But I suggest that you take a class in the subject rather than trying to learn it without a teacher.&nbsp; I suggest that you take that class at a university, as there you will have a better chance of finding a teacher who understands the subject.&nbsp; I will list authors, since the title is almost always Calculus.&nbsp; Apostol, Leithold, Bers, Thomas and Finney.Once you understand calculus you can learn physics.&nbsp; Here are some physics texts, in a reasonable order, covering the fundamentals up through introductory quantum mechanics.My favorite is The Feynman Lectures on Physics by Richard Feynman.&nbsp; It is in 3 volumes and if you like Feynman's style, you can simply read this set and&nbsp;get a solid background in everything that you need including quantum mechanics.If you don't like Feynman's style then a more traditional series might follow these texts:Fundamentals of Physics -- Halliday, Resnick and WalkerClassical Electromagnetic Radiation -- MarionClassical Dynamics of Particles and Systems -- MarionMathematical Methods of Physics -- ArfkenPrinciples of Modern Physics -- LeightonElementary Quantum Mechanics -- SaxonNote that if your interest is in magnetism that it is probably more important to learn something about electromagnetism in the form of Maxwell's equations than to learn quantum mechanics.&nbsp; One other very good introduction to electromagnetism is Engineering Electromagnetics by Hayt.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Thank you. BTW I already have one of Feynman's works which I am reading now... The Characteristics of Physical Law </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;Thank you. BTW I already have one of Feynman's works which I am reading now... The Characteristics of Physical Law <br />Posted by why06</DIV></p><p>The Character of Physical Law is quite a good book.&nbsp; It is written for a lay audience.</p><p>The Feynman Lectures on Physics, recommended earlier in response to your request for learning material for quantum physics, at a technical level, is not for a lay audience.&nbsp; It is actually a set of lectures given by Feynman for a freshman physics class at Cal Tech in the early 1960's, from notes by Leighton and Sands.&nbsp; Itis a remarkable three-volume set of physics books.&nbsp; Feyman covers a great deal of modern physics without requiring a great deal of background and only a modest amount of mathematics.&nbsp; If you read between the lines, the physics is actually very deep, but Feynman's explanations are basically simple -- he is able to provide such explanations only because he had a profound understanding of the subject.</p><p>Many freshmen will find the book too hard, largely because of a lack of scientific maturity.&nbsp; But it is widely used by physics graduate students to study for general exams, because of the depth of insight provided and breadth of material covered.&nbsp; It is truly a masterpiece.</p><p>The lectures from which the books were derived may also have given trouble to many of the freshmen enrolled in the course.&nbsp; But the lecture hall was always full, because of faculty and graduate students who attended -- they were that good.</p><p>You might find The Feynman Lectures on Physics more difficult reading than The Character of Physical Law.&nbsp; But if you put in the effort to read&nbsp;and understand it you will be well rewarded.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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why06

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<p>Thanks for all the help Dr. I'm going to try to start somewhere. I'm not saying I'm going to read all those books at once, but atleast now I know what direction to head in. I'll keep a running tab and if I see the Feynman Lectures on Physics or anything in my library I'll try to undertand it. Your right it will take some work, but I have plenty of free time on my hands; misewell try to learn a little calculus before I go to college. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /></p><p>Thanks again, I know a lot of people come and go from this site, but SDC has helped me again and again everytime I find myself in a pickle. You don't go up to your bud in a football game and ask something like "Do you think that the structural inegrity of the steel beams supporting us would weaken if when an electric current is passed through it? Or maybe it would strengthen? So I'm glad there's a place I can go after school, and games, and dances, and hanging out with friends. I'm glad there's a place I can ask these questions that No one else would try to make sense of otherwise. So Thanks Dr. Rocket I really appreciate the help. Hopefully one day I will know enough to give back to the community. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks for all the help Dr. I'm going to try to start somewhere. I'm not saying I'm going to read all those books at once, but atleast now I know what direction to head in. I'll keep a running tab and if I see the Feynman Lectures on Physics or anything in my library I'll try to undertand it. Your right it will take some work, but I have plenty of free time on my hands; misewell try to learn a little calculus before I go to college. Thanks again, I know a lot of people come and go from this site, but SDC has helped me again and again everytime I find myself in a pickle. You don't go up to your bud in a football game and ask something like "Do you think that the structural inegrity of the steel beams supporting us would weaken if when an electric current is passed through it? Or maybe it would strengthen? So I'm glad there's a place I can go after school, and games, and dances, and hanging out with friends. I'm glad there's a place I can ask these questions that No one else would try to make sense of otherwise. So Thanks Dr. Rocket I really appreciate the help. Hopefully one day I will know enough to give back to the community. <br />Posted by why06</DIV></p><p>You just added a key piece of information.&nbsp; You are in high school.</p><p>The questions that you asked are at the level of an undergraduate physics or engineering student.&nbsp; The texts that I recommended are also at that level.&nbsp; From what you said you will not have the background to read them without a lot of work.&nbsp; But also from the level of questions that you asked you do have the aptitude to learn that material.&nbsp; And if you are in high school you will have the time to do so.&nbsp; All that you really need now is the opportunity.</p><p>Depending on your perspective, and it will change as you learn, you may or may not be able to learn calculus on your own.&nbsp; This has relatively little to do with how smart you are or whether or not you have the capability at some time in the future to handle truely abstract mathematics.&nbsp; It is more just a matter of an individual stage of educational development.</p><p>Calculus, done properly, has a different flavor from the algebra that you see in high school.&nbsp; For most high school algebra the ojbective is to "find the answer" or "solve the equation".&nbsp; Unfortunately that also applies to many high school calculus classes.&nbsp; But the real objective in a calculus should be to understand the basic CONCEPTS that underlie the ideas of the derivative, the integral, and limits of an infinite sequence.&nbsp; Those concepts are often obscured by an over-emphasis on calculating derivatives, calculating integrals and finding the&nbsp;limits of sequences -- "finding the answer" rather than understanding the answer.</p><p>I think it is important to learn calculus from someone who has a deep understanding of the subject.&nbsp; Most often that means someone at a university, a professor or an advanced graduate student.&nbsp; I once had a conversation on this subject with a very senior engineering professor from MIT, and he is of like mind.</p><p>So, if you can teach yourself calculus, then more power to you.&nbsp; But if you find the subject difficult at first, I suggest that you simply wait and learn the subject at a university.&nbsp; You have the time.&nbsp; As a simple experiment, and since you are not worried about a grade, you might want to take a look at Maxwell Rosenlicht's little book "Introduction to Analysis".&nbsp; It is available as an inexpensive Dover paperback, and presents calculus from a somewhat advanced theoretical perspective, but one that actually makes the subject more clear.&nbsp; It won't help to calculate integrals or derivatives, but it will help you to understand what they really are.</p><p>You will also find that the texts that I recommended will take quite a bit of time and effort to master.&nbsp; That is as it should be.&nbsp; There is a way to get some help and to find the time to devote to those subjects -- major in physics or engineering with the appropriate electives.</p><p>And finally, unless the electric current is VERY large (a lightning bolt will do little or no damage)&nbsp;it will have no effect on the steel beams supporting your football stadium.&nbsp; They are made of mild steel to begin with and your stadium is designed to loose tolerances with a very large safety margin.&nbsp; A large part of the load is concentrated in the bolts, and there is a large safety margin there too.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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why06

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You just added a key piece of information.&nbsp; You are in high school.</DIV></p><p>Well without saying it directly I supposed I did. It's not one of those things I like to mention too often, but some of my closer friends on this site, most of them are banned, used to know. Anyway I did happen to check out a book called "Calculus Made Easy" by: Thompson and I've only read the first chapeter as of yet, but so far I haven't seen anything too intimidating yet. The Preface says that this book tries to convey the meaning of integral and defferential Calculus so I hope it will be a good place to start. Perhaps if I didn't flunk out of Trig last year I could be taking Calculus in this, my Senior Year, but oh well... I really didn't get Trig then the way my teacher taught it, but now that I'm taking it again this year it seems really easy, and I wish I had buckled down so I could take Calculus instead. Also because I didn't make it into Calculus I can't take the AP Physics Course this year, but I don't want to start out in colleg in the hole. So I figure if I can sort of teach myself Calculus it would help a lot in college. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>
 
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DrRocket

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Well without saying it directly I supposed I did. It's not one of those things I like to mention too often, but some of my closer friends on this site, most of them are banned, used to know. Anyway I did happen to check out a book called "Calculus Made Easy" by: Thompson and I've only read the first chapeter as of yet, but so far I haven't seen anything too intimidating yet. The Preface says that this book tries to convey the meaning of integral and defferential Calculus so I hope it will be a good place to start. Perhaps if I didn't flunk out of Trig last year I could be taking Calculus in this, my Senior Year, but oh well... I really didn't get Trig then the way my teacher taught it, but now that I'm taking it again this year it seems really easy, and I wish I had buckled down so I could take Calculus instead. Also because I didn't make it into Calculus I can't take the AP Physics Course this year, but I don't want to start out in colleg in the hole. So I figure if I can sort of teach myself Calculus it would help a lot in college. <br />Posted by why06</DIV></p><p>You won't be starting college in the&nbsp; hole.&nbsp; If you were not prepared to start calculus in college you would be in the hole, but taking calculus as a freshman should not only put you on track, but actually give you the advantage of learning the subject from someone who will probably understand it.</p><p>I wouldn't worry too much about AP Physics either.&nbsp; I generally don't like either AP Physics or AP Calculus.&nbsp; You are better off learning those subjects at a university from someone with real expertise in the field.</p><p>But learn the trig.&nbsp; Trigonometry is important to physics and engineering -- very important.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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why06

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You won't be starting college in the&nbsp; hole.&nbsp; If you were not prepared to start calculus in college you would be in the hole, but taking calculus as a freshman should not only put you on track, but actually give you the advantage of learning the subject from someone who will probably understand it.I wouldn't worry too much about AP Physics either.&nbsp; I generally don't like either AP Physics or AP Calculus.&nbsp; You are better off learning those subjects at a university from someone with real expertise in the field.But learn the trig.&nbsp; Trigonometry is important to physics and engineering -- very important.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>Well I'm taking Trig now and I seem to be doing pretty well in it. At first I had trouble with the Unit Circle because I used the triangle Method so much while the rest of my class just memerized the circle, but it seems like one day I was just in class and I realized I had memorized the unit circle too because I didn't need to think about it. At the same time I translate the radians into whatever special triangle it was. So this helped a lot when we got to solving for theta. Because though I am usually the slowest kid in my class, I found I could solve fore theta just as fast as or faster then the rest of the class. So I'm glad I learned the triangle method instead of just memorizing the unit circle, because it seems to have helped in the long run.</p><p>I don't know why I'm going on like this. This thread was originally about monoploles. But&nbsp; thanks for the advice. I've printed off a the list of books you mentioned. So if I happen to run by one some time in the library I can check it out.&nbsp;</p><p>Otherwise So far after what I've been reading I can figure a big part about Calculus is series. I never thought to make an infinite series equal to a variable "x". </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>
 
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MeteorWayne

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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You won't be starting college in the&nbsp; hole.&nbsp; If you were not prepared to start calculus in college you would be in the hole, but taking calculus as a freshman should not only put you on track, but actually give you the advantage of learning the subject from someone who will probably understand it.I wouldn't worry too much about AP Physics either.&nbsp; I generally don't like either AP Physics or AP Calculus.&nbsp; You are better off learning those subjects at a university from someone with real expertise in the field.But learn the trig.&nbsp; Trigonometry is important to physics and engineering -- very important.&nbsp; <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV><br /><br />That's a very good point. I took calculus in my senior year of high school from a teacher who not only didn't understand it, but was a horrible teacher who could put a speed freak to sleep. It completely polluted my first year of college calc which&nbsp;was a factor in causing&nbsp;me to drop out. I have spent decades in the process of recovering from that disaster.</p><p>I love good teachers. I hate bad ones.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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