my theory

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vandivx

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well, it kind of uspsets me when I go overboard explaining this stuff on the level I do and it gets stopped over the point of these modern times foolish ideas that animals are fundamentally not different from men and that's the only discussion I get<br /><br />you're more than welcomed to that view but don't expect me to go on with my post as I feel it would be futile, I am not out to convert anybody, I suppose such disagreement might seem to you a minor point in the overall discussion but it is not, I mean if you think of animals what you said there then that means you don't understand at all what man's mind is all about (that's not meant as flame or any offense, just plain stating how I see it)<br /><br />modern trend is to belittle man's mind as possible, denying free will and making him look like automaton in every way and what not (incl. claims of (soon) manufacturing his mind in AI efforts) and in contrast animals are increasingly elevated and every sophisticated behaviour they exhibit it taken as a sign of human qualities in them and there is increasingly loud clamoring for animal rights and so on while man's rights are being denied right left forward and back, need more to be said, makes me proper sick such trend, again this comment is not aimed directly at you or anybody here in particular, it is just general rant at broad population and the trend it follows nowadays<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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R1

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<font color="yellow">modern trend is to belittle man's mind as possible...<br />while man's rights are being denied...</font><br />are there specific rights denied you wish to share?(I mean fundamentally speaking my opinion is that man has<br />just so many rights, the right to life, to be sapient, the right to free will, the right to have faith in God<br />etc.)<br /><br />I've been trying to think about these things, as I see it I don't think animals are being put above humans,<br />but I do think we are fundamentally alike: we're all living, we're dna-based life, we and our pets are sentient.<br />Now, humans are sapient, and wheras this is indeed a fundamental difference, it appears that being<br />alive and sentient is a first order fundament--and perhaps a reason for the affection humans give their pets.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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adrenalynn

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Van,<br /><br />You requested an example. I provided it. Rather than responding by countering my example, you would rather state that I "don't understand at all what man's mind is all about".<br /><br />I've rewritten this post half a dozen times. Let's just simplify this:<br /><br />Respond to the counter data provided specifically or keep your unqualified opinion regarding what I may or may not "understand" to yourself, please. Thanks! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>.</p><p><font size="3">bipartisan</font>  (<span style="color:blue" class="pointer"><span class="pron"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size="2">bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən</font></span></span>) [Adj.]  Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.</p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">IMPE</font><font color="#c0c0c0">ACH</font> <font color="#0000ff"><font color="#c0c0c0">O</font>BAMA</font>!</font></strong></p> </div>
 
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wurf

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vanDivX, I'm really going to make your day: On my home page within the last week, there was a news headline about someone in Austria trying to have a chimp legally declared a person. I recall some years back, someone in California was advocating legislation to allow a gorilla to sue in a court of law. Either these people are trying to make a point in furtherance of some agenda, or else they're insane. It would be interesting to see these types of extremists be logically consistent. If allowed to elevate animal consciouness to the human level this way, they would have to call for the arrest and criminal prosecution of every lion, shark, bear...every carnivore that "murders" other animals.<br /><br />They've been trying diligently for a long, long time, and the moment any researcher gets an ape, dolphin or any animal to perform a bona fide act of reasoning, we'll all know it because it will be the lead story on every news service. Around the 1970's, there was a period of over-zealous reporting in the popular press ("Researchers Teach Gidget the Chimp to Write Episode of Joanie Loves Chachi!"), but the most impressive results still amount to somewhat more complex versions of "press certain lever, get a treat" - acts of association/expectation which we know most animals are capable of.<br /><br />I love my dog, but I love him for what he is. When he engages in normal animal acts which seem human-like, I can see it as cute or amazing. I don't see anything cute or amazing when a human engages in normal human-like behavior. It's because I know that my dog and I are, in terms of consciousness, different things, that I see anything extraordinary in some of his normal actions.<br /><br />Lol, I suppose it's a kind of tribute to the over-arching importance of astronomy that these threads can go off topic in this way. It probably happens much less often in a forum about monster trucks.
 
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MeteorWayne

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gravity? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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adrenalynn

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Wurf,<br /><br />There is no inherent anthropomorphism involved in the observation of data-points suggesting sentience/self awareness. There is no inherent definition of self-awareness requiring a human be involved. And there are humans that are not self-aware. <br /><br />MW - this conversation has a very dense specific gravity, does that count? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>.</p><p><font size="3">bipartisan</font>  (<span style="color:blue" class="pointer"><span class="pron"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size="2">bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən</font></span></span>) [Adj.]  Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.</p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">IMPE</font><font color="#c0c0c0">ACH</font> <font color="#0000ff"><font color="#c0c0c0">O</font>BAMA</font>!</font></strong></p> </div>
 
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wurf

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A sleeping human is unconscious (not self-aware), but he remains sentient. If you shout or poke him with a sharp stick, he will quickly become self-aware, but there has to be at least a fraction of a second where he merely senses the shout or pain, without the ability to form a conscious thought about it.<br /><br />Humans don't know much about animal thought or consciousness, we can only speculate. Which is a way of saying that humans don't know what it's like to be an animal. A possible reason that we don't know what it's like to be an animal, is that we are not animals.
 
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MeteorWayne

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Once again, please excuse my shouting..<br /><br />THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAVITY.<br /><br />Therefore this discussion, as currently constructed does not belong in Ask the Astronomer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
 
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telfrow

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No, it doesn't.<br /><br />Let's get back on topic, shall we? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>
 
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nexium

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To sumarize (hopefully with few errors) Most scientists think the central super massive black hole defines the orbits of stars with in perhaps 100 light years. Such a black hole does not suck in stars or debris, but colissions can cause orbit change which results in objects falling though the event horizon.<br />Our Earth may move a few meters closer to our sun per year. At present we can not measure the change, which is about as likely to be away from the Sun.<br />We are not sure why Earth is heating up. There are many conflicting theories.<br />SO2 causes acid rain, but I don't think it is a green house gas. Neil
 
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mytheory

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OK now, black holes alter space and time right? I'm almost certain that they also effect the lite around them. If they're altering the lite coming from the stars rotating around them, wouldn't this distort our view of what's really occurring in these regions? Possible Optical illusion here <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">@LEX</span> </div>
 
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depris

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<font color="black"><br />Perhaps it is not so much technology, but our own ability to exceed expectations as both individuals and a species, that guides humanity to glorious destinations. I would assume nature does not allow for objects within it to evolve beyond their means. Their are occasionally people born that regonize their own abilities and have sufficient strength of mind to contribute largely to growth of thought and achievements. Additionally, their are golden ages... short bursts of broad success that feature more prominently in memory and/or history.<br /><br />If you follow this train of thought, perhaps its our ability to "prove" to nature that we can live in a more cohesive way... that we can excel our existence and promote excellence in the existence of others... if we can not only learn ourselves, but teach others that which is most excellent: truth, creation, foundation, curiosity, and most especially imagination.<br /><br />We live amongst our technology (its good and its bad), its aftermath, and dated political systems. Dated philosophies that just will not mesh well with our current ways of thinking; nature does not allow it. Perhaps a greater indicator of our ability to develop technologies utilized to discover, explore, create, found, and broaden both our own mental thoughts and the workings of our universe in totality is not so much our evolution of existing technologies as much as evolution of our own artificial systems, lifestyles, and personal abilities/perspectives.<br /><br />If everyone were living well under a united planet that showed more hope and good... had at first devoted its attention to itself... than all the artificial problems would cease to exist. You wouldn't need to convince people to grant you funding or to discuss more often topics of importance because everyone would be happy in their private lives... their social lives.. they would enjoy life to its fullest and have enough free time to do what they enjoy and consider important</font>
 
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yevaud

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This thread is off-topic for this forum. I'll move it to Phenomena, where it may actually get discussed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>
 
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