Mystery meteorite illness

robnissen · Sep 20, 2007

First off, the odds that there was an ET life form in the meteorite are astronomically low (pun intended). But if there was, while it did not evolve to infect us, we also did not evolve to defend against it. So there would be some chance that it could cause a problem. BTW, with all due respect to those who got ill (and I would not say this, except that it appears that this is not any sort of life threatening illness), if these people did get sick from an ET life form, I think that would be ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL earth-shaking news.

MeteorWayne · Sep 20, 2007

There was no identification of who allegedly made those claims. Like most media hypefests, facts are in very short supply. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Smersh · Sep 20, 2007

3488 What happened about the report of the impactor being a Carbonaceous Chondrite?? See my post about about the scientists from the London Natural History museum. It seems the scientists are disagreeing with each other. Symbolite Even if the meteorite did bring some sort of lifeform would it even be able to make us sick? Since its coming from some where in space, the lifeforms would have never contacted any humans or other earth creatures for that matter. They shouldn't be able to infect us with randon sickness since they didn't evolve to be able to infect us. Does that make any sense, im just taking a guess here. I don't think any scientists at all are suggesting that these illnesses were caused by alien life forms, contained in a meteorite. Geologists in Peru, who visited the crater, say it was a chondrite meteor that caused the crater, whilst other scientists (who, as far as I know, have still to visit the crater site,) are suggesting a meteor was not what caused the crater at all, even if a fireball was witnessed. At least, that's how I understand it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea." Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."Website / forums </div>

3488 · Sep 20, 2007

Hi Smersh, so the jury is still out on whether or not it was a meteorite. The evidence does seem to suggest that there was no meteorite. Hi MeteorWayne, yes you are more than correct. Media hype over anything that is unusual is always over hyped, without facts being checked first. No wonder why so many people become disallusioned with Science. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

adrenalynn · Sep 20, 2007

Silylene - Does anyone know the altitude and local climate where the crater was observed? If it were at the upper reaches of the Puna we observe in the photo, it could be approaching 4000m, believe it or not. Above the Puna is perma-snow. Realistically, this time of year, I'd expect temps in the low 20's (F) for the lows, and high 50's (F) for the highs. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

Smersh · Sep 22, 2007

Well here's a new angle on things. Phil Plait, in his Bad Astronomy blog, has put forward the theory that the crater and illnesses may have been caused by an errant Peruvian Scud missile ... link. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea." Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."Website / forums </div>

silylene old · Sep 22, 2007

National Geographic is reporting that the meteorite's hot surface hit an underground source of water rich in arsenic, and that this caused a column of steam that sickened people. They also report that debris was flung as far as 250 m away, and hit some nearby homes. By the way, arsine (AsH3) smells distinctly like a garlicy fish* . Organometallic chemists know that organoarsine compounds typically have a garlicy smell, and that inhalation often causes an immediate headache. (Organophosphine compounds have a more oniony rotten fish smell, and also cause a headache). Have there been any reports on what it smelled like? *some people can't smell As compounds due to a mutation which causes a loss of a smell receptor <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

jaxtraw · Sep 22, 2007

Maybe it was a hopelessly lost jihadist.

JonClarke · Sep 22, 2007

I think the comment by the Caoline Smith of the NHM patronising. The people who live there know their region intimately. They would not link the fireball to an already existing feature. They may be peasants, but they aren't stupid. The Peruvian scientist who identfied chondritic material isn't a nameless source either, but was identfied as Luisa Macedo of the Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute. they could be wrong, but on the other hand she was actually on site too, which is more than can be said by of Caoline Smith and other remote experts. As for Phil Plait's suggest that it was a Scud, that is plain silly. Assuming that Peru hasd any (there is no evidence they do) where are the metallic parts? Even a live warhead would not have a crater that size. Plait as been sayingh some silly things recently, this is just one of them. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

adrenalynn · Sep 23, 2007

Jon, Strongly agreed. MeteorWayne's response was much more scientifically responsible, imho. Unusual result? Certainly. I'd never peg it from the few photos as a meteorite/space-debris crater. But to remotely make silly goofy speculations like some of the ones the "experts" are tossing around when they have responsible trained observer boots on the ground? Puhlease. Just shut up until they have something to contribute that is even remotely worthwhile. My own observation would go something more like: "Unusual feature. Until we have a chance to get some samples back to a larger lab, we're going with what the local observers have stated." This unscientific posturing does NOT win any friends or further ones career - imho. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

Smersh · Sep 23, 2007

JonClarke I think the comment by the Caoline Smith of the NHM patronising. The people who live there know their region intimately. They would not link the fireball to an already existing feature. They may be peasants, but they aren't stupid. The Peruvian scientist who identfied chondritic material isn't a nameless source either, but was identfied as Luisa Macedo of the Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute. they could be wrong, but on the other hand she was actually on site too, which is more than can be said by of Caoline Smith and other remote experts. Yes I agree the comment did sound a little patronising, especially as it was made after Luisa Macedo had already visited the site, and concluded the crater was caused by a chondrite meteor. The BBC report did say though, that the Natural History Museum were sending a team of scientists to the site to investigate, so I guess we'll have to wait for their conclusions. I haven't seen any reports on their findings yet (I just did a search.) Also I don't know if the team has even arrived there yet. Adrenalynn Strongly agreed. MeteorWayne's response was much more scientifically responsible, imho. In MeteorWayne's opinion, the crater is the wrong shape to be a meteor crater. Phil Plait also said the crater is the wrong shape for a meteor. The Peruvians are saying it was a chondrite meteor though, after having visited the site, so somebody must have got it wrong. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea." Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."Website / forums </div>

silylene old · Sep 23, 2007

Yes I agree the comment did sound a little patronising, especially as it was made after Luisa Macedo had already visited the site, and concluded the crater was caused by a chondrite meteor. Interestingly, the National Geographic article had this to say. Please note that fragments have been found an analyzed: <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Solving the Mystery Even as meteorite samples arrived in Lima Thursday for testing, Peruvian scientists seemed to unanimously agree that it was a meteorite that had struck their territory. "Based on the first-hand reports, the impact and the samples, this is a meteorite," Macedo, of INGEMMET, said. Tests revealed no unusual radiation at the site, though its absence didn't rule out a meteorite crash. "Everything has radioactivity, even underground rocks," Montoya said. "But nothing out of the ordinary was found." Preliminary analysis by Macedo's institute revealed no metal fragments, indicating a rare rock meteorite. Metal stands up better to the heat created as objects enter Earth's atmosphere, which is why most meteorites are metallic. The samples she reviewed had smooth, eroded edges, Macedo added. "As the rock enters the atmosphere, it gets smoothed out," she said. The samples also had a significant amount of magnetic material "characteristic of meteorites," she said. "The samples stick to the magnet," I&%$#@!suka, the geologist, confirmed. "That shows that there is iron present." Water samples at the crater proved normal, but the color and composition of soil were "unusual" for the area, Macedo noted. JosÃ© Machare, a geoscience adviser at INGEMMET, said x-ray tests conducted on the samples earlier today further confirmed the object's celestial origins. He said the group's findings put to rest earlier theories that the object</blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

adrenalynn · Sep 23, 2007

In MeteorWayne's opinion, the crater is the wrong shape to be a meteor crater. Phil Plait also said the crater is the wrong shape for a meteor. What you say is rarely as important as how you say it. ---- Interestingly, the National Geographic article had this to say. Please note that fragments have been found an analyzed:[...] I would like to see more regarding that analysis. Not much "there" there, in my view. What kind of chondrite? (aka class) Better physical description? Not enough description there to send me to "chondrite fragment land" Most importantly - are there chondrules or not? If so, what size? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

Smersh · Sep 23, 2007

What you say is rarely as important as how you say it. I posted about Phil Plait's Scud missile theory, after I came across it quite by accident and thought I'd throw it into the mix in this thread. I'm not saying I think that is what caused it, as I am only a layman and I don't know what the cause was. A pretty good argument against it I think, as someone pointed out in a comment on his blog, is if Peru were testing a Scud missile, why would they fire it over land and not out into the Pacific Ocean? I'll quote Phil Plait here from his blog, before he gets on to the part about the missile theory: Look at the evidence: the crater doesnâ€™t look like a hypersonic impact crater. The shape is wrong, the size is wrong. There has never, not once, in the history of mankind been a meteorite impact that caused people to become ill. No meteorite has yet been found in the crater, despite the incredibly high value of such an object. Circumstantially, too, most impacts are not caused by meteorites. I don't know if the above statement by Phil Plait is correct or not, regarding the history of meteor impacts because, as I said, I am not an expert. I'm sure MeteorWayne could either confirm or deny it though. I also don't know if that statement was written before or after the Peruvians made their announcement about the chondrite meteor. I also note that the National Geographic article talks about "samples" and indictates they are strongly suspected to be that of a meteorite. The point I am trying to make here, is that some people have commented that the crater is the wrong shape for a meteor, so if they are correct, it must mean that the Peruvian scientists are wrong, because they have concluded it was a chondrite meteor. If the Peruvians are correct, that means it must have been a meteor, even if the crater is the wrong shape. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea." Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."Website / forums </div>

adrenalynn · Sep 23, 2007

My apologies, Smersh - the "you" in my statement was a "Royal You", not "you" specifically. I was projecting, and that was poor communication. Sorry. I was alluding to the point that the way MW expressed it and the way Plait expressed it were different. One (MW) struck me as a statement of observation - ie. perfectly valid. The other (Plait) as chest-thumping ego, which, imho, has no place in science. A lot of things happen almost daily that are not within our existing knowledge base. In a nearly infinite universe, could a meteor strike the earth and create a crater of that shape and size? Very probably. We need to be open to the possibility. A couple crummy photos does not an investigation make. With a pretty decent authority on-site, who has most certainly seen a condrite before, and is aware of their unique physical properties, pending a serious third party investigation I would run with what he has to say on the matter, at least preliminarily. In my experience, it's really easy to get emotionally attached when someone pokes a camera in my face and introduces me as the expert. What I've learned over time, in a hard-won sort of way, is that that's exactly the wrong thing to do. If it's a meteorite - cool. If it's not a meteorite - cool. It's just another scientific phenomena ready for me to put my brain to. The rules don't change just because a camera shows up. Save the speculation for the media - they're good at it. Alas, I've also learned that if I remain detached, the media will collectively shuffle off to find someone that will get emotional. There are a tremendous number of means by which people can be made ill. As so many brilliant contributors to this thread have detailed - many very terrestrial ill effects could be observed by cramming a big-arsed chunk of super-heated debris into the ground. Without some reliable medical authority doing their "thang" in cooperation with some geologic au <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

JonClarke · Sep 23, 2007

Of course to be fair to these experts, it is difficult when you are professor Fred Nerk at Bexhill University and XYZ news rings up and asks for a comment over the phone. You have to say something intelligent, even when all you have to go on is the same media reports as the rest of the world. Oh, and you have noway of reviewing what you say and how you are qouted. I've been there and done that! Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

silylene old · Sep 23, 2007

A couple crummy photos does not an investigation make. I too would like to see more data. That said, there are a couple of videos online showing the Peruvian meteor crater. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

adrenalynn · Sep 23, 2007

I've been there and done that! Yup. And gotten myself in "trouble" for the pleasure. These days, I'm pretty straight with the "I don't have any first hand knowledge. Go fish" comments. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> .bipartisan (bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən) [Adj.] Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.IMPEACH OBAMA! </div>

MeteorWayne · Sep 23, 2007

Hi all, I've been very busy this weekend so have not had time for a thoughtful reply. This may be my best shot for 24 hours or so. I stand by my statement that the crater does not look right for a meteorite impact. Something is just not right. If a meteorite with cosmic velocity came in and hit the ground, the devestation would be more extreme, as I understand things. If it was a "dark flight" meteorite, it is falling straight down at 200 or 300 mph, which would leave a much flatter crater. And would pretty much exist in one piece. I am not an "expert" but I am not a layman either. Of course, I have not been there, so I am just sharing my observations from a distance. Of course we have "reports" of meteorite rain, "reports" of analysis of meteorites, etc. So far I've seen no hard data. Jon says he respects the person who said they are Chondrites; as far as I can go, that's good enough for me. But....it still doesn't "look" right. It's hard for me to explain exactly why, but it's really the combined knowledge I've gained in a decade or more of intense reading and interest in the subject. Not sure if it was this thread or the other, but I'd rather go to the real science than what National Geographic prints. I do not consider them a reliable source on the subject of meteorites, having had personal contact with them regarding an alleged lake hitting meteorite. The people representing them ignored logic and science, and seemed to want to pursue the non-existant meteorite, to the point of having divers search the lake for a meteorite that clearly did not exist. They threatened to call the cops on me, because I was conducting a scientific factual investigation of an alleged meteorite fall that they were involved in. I was not amused. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> As to the other part, I will need extrordinary proof to show that any illness was caused by the possible meteorite. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

JonClarke · Sep 24, 2007

Can you be more specific about something being not quite right? The photos show the crater as being roughly circular and with a raised rim. the crater and rim are composed or fragmented, blocky soil. It is 30 m across and 6 m deep. This the 5:1 ratio typical of impact craters. Other sources say it is only 17 m across and 5 m deep. this is a big on the deep side, but not impossible. The witnesses saw a fireball, heard an explosion, and experienced debris raining on roofs several hundred metres away. In the morning they found the crater and dsicovered it was giving off noxious fumes. The only scientists to have visited the site or examined material claim to have found meteoritic material. This is variously reported as being chrondritic http://www.livinginperu.com/news/4730or as having a high proportion of iron http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4758-environmentnature-astrophysicist-in-peru-identifies-properties-in-meteorite . Let's say the report of meteoritic material is wrong. We still have an event consistent with something falling from the sky and making the crater. Space debris and missile tests seem precluded by the absence of any mention wreckage in the reports. That leaves a meteorite as the best explanation. I think you raise an interesting question with regard to the velocity. There is a transition zone between larger meteorites hitting with their full cosmic velocity, and small ones that are basically falling at terminal velocity. The Sikhote-Alin fall illustrates this, the largest crater, 27 m, is essentially a true impact, the smaller fragments are more pits. Other impact craters in the 10-30 m size range are known - smallest Wabar (11) Haviland (15) the smallest Henbury (20), and Dalgarang <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

Smersh · Sep 24, 2007

Adrenalynn My apologies, Smersh - the "you" in my statement was a "Royal You", not "you" specifically. I was projecting, and that was poor communication. Sorry. I just wanted to say no problem, I didn't take it as being directed against me and figured you were criticising Phil Plait for the way he jumped in with the Scud Missile theory. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Phil Plait is an astronomer, but I guess what we need now is a comment somewhere on the internet, from someone who is an expert on missile systems (a rocket scientist? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and who might know what a crater caused by a Scud would look like. Actually, it wasn't Phil Plait who originally came up with the Scud theory, he was just putting it forward in his blog, after he had seen a person by the name of Pat Flannery post about it on a science newsgroup. I don't know who Pat Flannery is, or if he is an expert on missile systems, but I'll quote him here from the ongoing newsgroup thread, for what it's worth: From http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about278561-15.html I still like my errant Peruvian Scud missile theory; it fits the crater size, matches the description of something flaming falling from the sky, Jane's says they may have acquired Scud missiles in 1995-96, and all the sickness is due to the fumes from the propellant, IRFNA: http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/envs/scud_irfna.htm There were reports of people gathering up metallic debris in the area, thinking it was valuable, and getting skin lesions. If you handle metal with IRFNA on it, you are going to get skin lesions. Pat I just did another search btw, to see if there is any more news from the Natur <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea." Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."Website / forums </div>

CalliArcale · Sep 25, 2007

The BA has posted again on this subject, and now he thinks it's a crater -- in fact, he's gone so far as to say it's basically definitely a meteorite. The weird shape is because of the high water table -- this is near Lake Titicaca -- and the illness may have been due to steam cast up during the impact (again, high water table) as there are naturally occuring arsenic deposits in the area. Nasty. Meteorite Mayhem III: Solved? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Smersh · Sep 25, 2007

Well, that's interesting. If that is correct it means that the Peruvian scientists were correct after all. I did notice though, that the BA is quoting National Geographic and MeteorWayne said he has no confidence in that particular organisation. In fact, I think it's the same National Geographic article that was linked earlier in this thread. Maybe this story isn't over yet ... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <h1 style="margin:0pt;font-size:12px">----------------------------------------------------- </h1>Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea." Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."Website / forums </div>

MeteorWayne · Sep 25, 2007

Phil seems to be really guessing here (very common among the non meteoritic astronomical community) As I've stated earlier, I have no confidence whatsoever in anything coming out from National Geographic as far as the subject of meteorites is concerened. Until proven otherwise, I'll stand by my first guess. Even a meter sized object would not be hot enough to boil water, and any large enoughthat could have hit the ground with any cosmic velocity left would have vaporized the water. So the only possible way this could work if it was a dark flight (i.e. atmospheric terminal velocity) object , which would have to be huge to create such a large crater. And agin, it's too deep for a 200 kph object. I certainly could be wrong in my first impression. I am not on scene, so can't provide a precise input. However, with years of investigating fireballs that "landed over the next hill" for a thousand miles, and my intensive study of the subject for over a decade, I still feel the same way. Hopefully, some perr reviewed science will come out of this that will clarify the situation. That will be months away. Everything before then is pure speculation. I know how these things work. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

JonClarke · Sep 25, 2007

Wayne Why do you keep insisting this must have been a "dark flight" meteorite? All the evidence indicates it was not Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

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