Cosmic Log: Peruvian meteorite update

[docm]

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/10/406411.aspx<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>It's a story worthy of an "Indiana Jones" sequel: Drawn by outlandish legends, a controversial collector journeys to Peru, purchases pieces of a rare meteorite under shady circumstances, then has to hightail it across the border to Bolivia with police in hot pursuit. Now the plot is nearing its resolution - and the finale could make another meteorite-size splash.<br /><br />"It's been quite an interesting week for me," Michael Farmer told me today from his home in Arizona. "I did have to make my escape, that's for sure. ... Another day in the life of a meteorite hunter."<br /><br />The tale began Sept. 15, when villagers in a remote corner of Peru said they saw a fireball falling to Earth, went out to investigate and spotted a huge crater partly filled with bubbling water. Some smelled an unpleasant odor, and fell ill with headaches and upset stomachs. Initial reports from the scene suggested that the cause of this all was a meteorite emitting hazardous fumes - and in response, authorities called a state of emergency.<br /><br />When Farmer heard about all this, during a buying trip to Spain, he couldn't believe it. "Pure lunacy," he recalled. But in the days that followed, investigators confirmed the existence of a meteorite - though not the part about hundreds of people getting sick - so Farmer decided he'd better check out the scene.<br /><br />After a stopover in Colombia to buy more meteorite specimens, Farmer dropped in on the Peruvian border town of Desaguadero on Sept. 29 and stopped at the police station to ask about the meteorite site. He said the police gave him directions - and sold him samples of the space rock. "Every one of them had pieces in their pockets," Farmer told me.<br /><br />Soon afterward, he arrived at the site, talked with farmers in</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[exoscientist]

From the descriptions it sounds like it was a carbonaceous chondrite:<br /><br />Carbonaceous chondrite.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_chondrite<br /><br />These are among the most coveted types of meteorites since they contain organic matter that may give clues to the origin of life on Earth.<br /><br /><br /> Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

I am not suprised that the local police got annoyed. In my country is a foreigner (or any one for that matter) turned up at the site of a major meteorite fall and were caught paying for bits they would end up in jail.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Why? Who owns a meteorite? The state? The police? I think if a meteorite fell in my garden, I should have every right to do as I wish with it. If I were an impoverished Andean with a bad meteorite-induced alien space virus, I think selling bits of the meteorite would be far more sensible than giving it to the police.<br /><br />Really. What kind of police state would lock people up for selling bits of rock?

 

[silylene old]

<font color="yellow">Really. What kind of police state would lock people up for selling bits of rock? </font><br /><br />It's illegal to collect and sell illegally obtained meteorites in quite a few Western countries, in addition to most of the African and Arabic countries. In the US it is illegal to collect from national parks, many state parks, and from private lands without permission of the owner, and from Indian reservations. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[adrenalynn]

Would that be dictated by Salvage Rights or Mineral Rights? <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>.</p><p><font size="3">bipartisan</font>  (<span style="color:blue" class="pointer"><span class="pron"><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size="2">bī-pär'tĭ-zən, -sən</font></span></span>) [Adj.]  Maintaining the ability to blame republications when your stimulus plan proves to be a devastating failure.</p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">IMPE</font><font color="#c0c0c0">ACH</font> <font color="#0000ff"><font color="#c0c0c0">O</font>BAMA</font>!</font></strong></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Meteorites are not just rocks, they are a poor man's space probes and some rare cateogories, such as SNCs, HEDs, Lunarites and carbonaceous chondrites are extremely important cientifically, providing dirrect samples of the Moon, Mars, differentiated asteroids, the earliest phases of the solar nebular, and presolar materials.<br /><br />As others have pointed out, the law varies from country to country. It's certainly not a sign of a police state but rather a regonition of the value of such things to the national heritage. <br /><br />In Australia meteorites, because of their scientfic vlaue, are supposed to be turned over to the musums, and penalties apply if they are not. A few meteorite fragments can be sold legally, typically these are fragments of large meteorites that were collected before the protection laws were brought in. Mundrabilla and henbury are examples of these. Metorites do get smuggled out of the country too, which is a great shame, because it means that local scientists don't get a chance to study them and local people don't get a change to see them on display. For your average iron meteorite this might not be a problem, but it is for for the rare types. It is my understanding that the first lunarite found in Australia was smuggled out and sold in the US. A great pity given the significant expertise that exists in Australia in lunar and meteorite research.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

Hmm. I'm questioning why, regardless of the virtues of giving meteorites to preferred parties, they belong to a state, under any kind of natural justice. Suppose we apply a simple finders keepers principle (on your own land, or public land, of course; on somebody else's land it's theirs and you're trespassing and thieving). If a meteorite drops in my back garden, I've just got a windfall... spacefall... whatever, and can fire off some emails to interested parties who can get out their chequebooks and pay me for a night or two down the pub. I'm incentivised to sell it to interested parties and publicise that widely to attract a maximal number of bidders. Scientific institutions, universities, museums, etc, will know about my meteorite and send guys with suitcases of cash to wrest it from my sweaty grasp. Or I can keep it, and lend it out to whoever, but really it's more in my interest to flog it.<br /><br />If I can't keep it, my best strategy is to rapidly collect up the bits, hide them, then flog them on the black market to a dime-store Indiana Jones.<br /><br />In the first scenario, I get in the local papers under "Man Gives Meteorite To Scientists For 50p, Is Bought Beers By Grateful Meteoritologists". In the second, you may never even hear of it.<br /><br />I don't really see why local scientists should get first dibs either in the Police State version. In the "ownership" scenario, it gets sold to the highest bidder, or the bidder I prefer, then when they've got their hands on it they can fight over who gets to study it, which surely in the caring sharing world of science would give everyone a look-in.<br /><br />I think this policy is an example of laws of unintended consequences. By preventing finders keeping, meteorites will get smuggled and sold under the counter, which is what we see happening. In my scenario, that's less likely to happen.<br /><br />It's much the same as archaelogical finds belonging to the government. It sounds good, but the result is they get smu

 

[vandivx]

"I am not suprised that the local police got annoyed. In my country is a foreigner (or any one for that matter) turned up at the site of a major meteorite fall and were caught paying for bits they would end up in jail.<br /><br />Jon"<br />----<br /><br />my reading of it is that those policemen didn't intend passing those pieces onto scientists or state authorities (my, what extreme naivete) but were behaving as simple primitives (that pocket stuff like that out of curiosity) or hacks counting on cashing in on it as they did and got greedy thinking they sold too cheaply (that is if the story is true and it rings true)<br /><br />if I have anything to go by from my limited experience of South America, police in countries like this one and especially in outlaying regions are nothing but thugs underneath their uniforms and make no mistake about it<br /><br />all that talk about how it is arranged in various countries and what agreeements there may be in the world when it comes to meteorites in the end nobody gives a hoot about it if he can get away with it and this guy Farmer knows that too well it seems and it might be that because of him at least some of the pieces will get under microscopes of qualified people, we should be thankfull to such people who don't talk hot air about laws and agreements but act... <br /><br />and its laughable how long thread here was filled with speculation based on second hand news reports from that pest hole of a region where they would deny nose between their eyes if it came to it LOL<br /><br />of course this indiana jones story may be just that but rings more true then the official news channels<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

You may be right. <br /><br />But there is a lot of prejudice against SA generally, based mostly on airport novels and cheap movies, which does match the reality when you go there. My only experience of SA police was in Chile where they are tough but very straight. I was very impressed with Chile generally. of course Peru is a different country.<br /><br />Mind you, none of the scientists who have been on site have complained, and this character is basically someone who smuggles meteorites out of countries for a living. So he is hardly an unbiased source of information.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[rasun]

If it's true that the local government still hasn't done anything to recover the pieces, and to dig up the whole meteorite, then this probably justifies Farmer's fast response by whatever means.<br /><br />And how did the other 7 kg he mentions get into private hands?