Natural Habitats on Moon/Mars

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">The real question is do these caves provide a natural habitat for off-world bases, and early outpost for colonization of the Moon/Mars?</font><br /><br />Whether such caves provide a habitat for Mars life is also a very real question. Although having said that, in my view, any life on Mars would necessarily be microscopic and so a microscopic void in the subsurface rock would be as good as a cave! The advantage of a cave would be for human explorers to have easier access to the subsurface to explore for life. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Why have we concluded no limestone? Why have we concluded no tetonics?" -- nexium</font><br /><br />For the sake of discussion, I accept some assumptions. There is already enough to argue about. As you see in my above posts, I think I can still argue for caves on Mars in spite of these assumptions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[marcel_leonard]

<font color="yellow">Whether such caves provide a habitat for Mars life is also a very real question. Although having said that, in my view, any life on Mars would necessarily be microscopic and so a microscopic void in the subsurface rock would be as good as a cave! The advantage of a cave would be for human explorers to have easier access to the subsurface to explore for life.</font><br /><br />Understand the importance of finding life on places other than the earth, but what about finding ways to live off the land? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"Understand the importance of finding life on places other than the earth, but what about finding ways to live off the land?"</font><br /><br />Both are important areas of study. It just depends on personal interest which area one decides to follow more closely. Each area has its devoted reseachers. I guess the real trouble comes when it's time to allocate funds to projects. Then the debate over which direction of reseach is more important becomes critical. Like the old robotic vs. human exploration debate. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"I'm sorry.... The strata must be raised to a level where precipitation and erosion are such that the minerals are carried away by gravity."</font><br /><br />While Florida caves are not large, they are extensive, and the process of their formation as described HERE relies more on change of water elevation than on tectonic uplifting:<br /><br /><i>"The caves of Florida were formed during recent Ice Ages, when polar and continental ice caps locked up water that would have otherwise returned to the sea. The resulting lowered sea levels allowed freshwater to drain downward through Florida's flat-lying limestones, carving extensive cave systems."</i><br /><br />Could Mars not have had, in its early history, a cycle of ice ages accompanied by raising and lowering of sea level and cave formation similar to what occured in Florida? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"You still have the problem of not having beds of limestone, which is readily degraded when exposed to weathering."</font><br /><br />The Mars analog would be beds of sulfates degraded when exposed to dilute sulfuric acid. Sulfate beds have already been found by Opportunity. How extensive or deep they are at Meridiani or elsewhere on Mars remains to be discovered.<br /><br />Carbonates (limestone) can be made in the absence of life, so the lack of life on Mars would not be in itself an adequate explanation for the absence of carbonates on Mars. One theory is that the waters of Mars, when there were martian seas, were a highly acidic sulfuric acid solution. This prevented the formation of carbonates. How it would affect the formation of sulfates, I don't know. The fact remains however that sulfates have been found on Mars but, so far, carbonates have not. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Maddad]

marcel<br />"<font color="yellow">There is little doubt that the same geology that formed caves here on Earth; also formed caves on all of the terrestrial planets.</font><br />The action of water forms caves on Earth. The Moon has never had water, so caves on the Moon would be extremely rare. Also, noting crazyeddie's comment that terrestrial caves are associated with mountain building, that process is also absent on the Moon.<br /><br />"<font color="yellow">Understand the importance of finding life on places other than the earth, but what about finding ways to live off the land?</font><br />You wanna trap beaver on Mars or the Moon?

 

[silylene old]

Evidence of significant large volcanic tube caverns on Mars, with pictures:<br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_quakes_041011.html<br />Most of these caverns we have pictoral evidence of are collapsed (of course, or we would have no evidence!). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[nexium]

Most sulphates are soluable in water. The few that are not, likely are not soluable in dilute sulphuric acid. <br />We can perhaps grow food in a big transparent plastic bags in the lowest elevations near the equator of Mars. The bags would be slightly pressurised with water vapor, carbon dioxide and oxygen, but not nearly enough for humans to breath. Many plants require some oxygen in their air. Heat would likely be needed during the typical 12.5 hour night and/or thermal insulation to prevent frost damage. The brightness of the sun is barely adequit for shade tolerant plants, so your diet is limited in both variety and quantity. You will likely need several cubic meters of food bags to produce your daily need for oxygen, so your agriculture is not very portable. Neil

 

[marcel_leonard]

<font color="yellow">You wanna trap beaver on Mars or the Moon? </font><br /><br />Actually yes I do; unfortunately I think potable water have to do... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[fatjoe]

Wrong again; water flow is not the only way caves are formed. They can be formed by cold dry eruptions of gas.

 

[marcel_leonard]

If there are subterranean environments similar to earthlike conditions [ie. underground liquid water springs, or breathable atmospheres caves] located on either Mars, Europa or the Moon; this would go a long to solving or fuel resourses problem. Not to mention future human colonization to live off the land. Living off the Land the has been the key constant throughout human civilization. If we can't successfully eat, sleep, and breed in these new environments we will be living at parents house for the foreseeable future... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[fatjoe]

<font color="red">nexium-<br />Most sulphates are soluable in water. The few that are not, likely are not soluable in dilute sulphuric acid. <br />We can perhaps grow food in a big transparent plastic bags in the lowest elevations near the equator of Mars. The bags would be slightly pressurised with water vapor, carbon dioxide and oxygen, but not nearly enough for humans to breath. Many plants require some oxygen in their air. Heat would likely be needed during the typical 12.5 hour night and/or thermal insulation to prevent frost damage. The brightness of the sun is barely adequit for shade tolerant plants, so your diet is limited in both variety and quantity. You will likely need several cubic meters of food bags to produce your daily need for oxygen, so your agriculture is not very portable. Neil </font><br /><br />Why not grow these foods underground; where there would be less likelyhood of meter shower impacts, and the harshness of Martian dust storms. My first choice would be a colony located near the martian poles where water would be more abundent.<br /><br />

 

[marcel_leonard]

What about underground springs? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[nexium]

Caves can have a small dimension of one meter and be usable as habitats, if they are long enough. More than token food production requires about 2 meters small dimension and perhaps 5000 KWH per pound of food produced with grow lights. 50 kilometers below the surface .3 to .5 bar, mostly oxygen may be practical with negligible leakage to the surface and negligible out gassing of the walls, somewhat closer to the surface. This is because a column of gas 50 km tall will have something like 1/2 bar of pressure at 0.38 gravity and 6 millibar at the surface. Light pipes could bring sunlight a few meters from the surface. but the habitat atmosphere will lift the roof with only a few meters of Mars dirt on top. Liquid water is likely at a depth of 50 kilometers, closer to the surface if Mars has more internal heat than generally supposed. Neil

 

[marcel_leonard]

Here is the lastest science on Martian/Lunar Lava Tube Caves... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[spayss]

Live in a tube? Why would someone want to go to Mars to live in a tube? Maybe those early hermits who depraved themselves of all pleasures and sat on top of a column for 10 years but at least they were enjoying the sunshine.<br /><br />

 

[marcel_leonard]

<font color="yellow">Learn to distinguish between sci fi and scientific fact, if you want to be taken seriously by persons of quality. </font><br /><br />Sort of like the why you have difficulty distinguishing between scientific theory, and scientific fact right? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[fatjoe]

Speaking of "Living Of The Land"

 

[nexium]

Stevehw is correct; Disposing of waste heat is very difficult 50 kms below the surface. Perhaps the interior of Earth is hot because of the metabolism of a few living things that like the temperature about 500 c = 932 f? How do we infer that the temperature continues to increase deeper than the deepest well we have? Lava from volcanoes may be anomolusly hot instead of typical of 50 kms down. Volcanoes are hot because of the heat of friction when tetonic plates rub/grind? Neil

 

[marcel_leonard]

I'm confused; why 50 km below the surface? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[craigmac]

I was thinking the other day about how we would update/improve on our next mission to the moon. One idea I had was to send self contained/propelled construction trailers as temporary habitat...

 

[craigmac]

I was always thought in astronomy the tectonic activity of a planet had to do with its mass, and how long ago it was formed. For example Earth’s iron core is molten; while Mar’s iron is not. Because Mars had less mass than the Earth at the time of formation, so as a result its core cooled down faster…

 

[chew_on_this]

Steve blathers:"First, you would have to demonstrate seas on Mars, which so far have NOT been found, nor even any clear evidence of such, not even brine."<br /><br />What rock did you just crawl out from under? This is just on example from a hundred, better brush up on the validity of your pronouncements:<br /><br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_oceans_000623.html

 

[craigmac]

<font color="orange">stevehw33<br />This is speculation, completely unsubstantiated & is very likely not the case. </font><br /><br />For once I have to agree w/ you. an astronomy refresher course would greatly reduce the speculation factor on this board.