Natural Habitats on Moon/Mars

[craigmac]

Is it possible that at the poles of either the Moon, or Mars that there are natural underground springs or caves were we could find pockets of ice water and oxygen; similiar to the incidence of natural caves of methane, and nitrogen gas; were we can we find basic lifeforms such as snottites here on earth?

 

[quasar2]

sure, pre-crash we had many many threads on this. it would appear there would be many areas on both where partial cavities are. the problem w/ both will be dust, & of course radiation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nexium]

Polar caves are likely 6 times deeper on the moon and twice as deep on Mars (compared to Earth); so water, gas and moderate temperatures are likely the farthest below the surface. Free oxygen seems unlikely, unless intelegent beings are producing the oxygen.<br /> Even the equitorial regions could also have natural habitats far below the surface. Neil

 

[paleo]

kpsting, that was my initial puzzlement. What caves?<br /><br /> There's also a myth that bacterial life is 'primitive'. It's not. It's as much of a product of 3 and half billion years of evolution as any other life form.

 

[mcbethcg]

I doubt there are any significant caves on either the moon or Mars. Caves on Earth are generally caused by the action of underground springs. Underground springs are caused by the movement of water from places where it is deposited by surface precipitation. For instance, water might be deposited in Colorado, soak into the soil, join an aquifer, and work its way across the country underground. Neither the moon or Mars has significant water, or precipitation.<br /><br />Caves are also caused by volcanic activity, which seems to be absent on both Mars and the moon.<br /><br />Perhaps there are other means, or perhaps in ages past, conditions were better for cave formation.

 

[silylene old]

<i>Why do you think POLAR CAVES are 6 TIMES deeper on the moon comparing to Earth? Are there any polar caves on the moon at all? </i><br /><br />I miss the thread we had before the forums wipe on the "hollow moon theory". Don't you know that the moon is hollow and the interior can be accessed through cave-like openings at the poles? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[marcel_leonard]

Actually the moon is made out of about 10% the early earth's mantel; which was blown out during the great collision theory. Since gravity attracts masses together; the blast debry would have coalesced at the centers of gravity of the particles as they collided together. Therefore I doubt that the moon is hollow... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[silylene old]

I was posting that the moon was hollow in jest. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[nexium]

All good thinking except sily, who is teasing us. I agree, there are no present mechanisms for forming caves on the Moon or Mars, except very improbable living things. On the other hand there are few mechanisms to distroy caves (other than gravity, which is 1/6 for the moon) that may have been formed when, and if, conditions were different a very long time ago.<br /> Even if the marcel coalesced theory is wrong, there are no known materials strong enough to support a Ceries size (diameter= 1000 km) hollow sphere interior of the moon. Gravity would collapse such a hollow unless it was inflated by volitiles at about one million PSI = pounds per square inch. Neil

 

[nexium]

It may be wishful thinking, but I prefer to believe the<br />moon and Mars both have small, but important amounts<br />of geo thermal heat. If we had only examed Earth to <br />the degree we have examed The Moon and Mars,<br />would we have determined (rather than theorized) that<br />Earth has geo thermal heat? Do modest amounts of<br />geo thermal heat have to produce earthquakes and<br />volcanos? I think not. Neil

 

[marcel_leonard]

Are you serious? <br /><br /><font color="yellow">All good thinking except sily, who is teasing us. I agree, there are no present mechanisms for forming caves on the Moon or Mars, except very improbable living things. On the other hand there are few mechanisms to distroy caves (other than gravity, which is 1/6 for the moon) that may have been formed when, and if, conditions were different a very long time ago. <br />Even if the marcel coalesced theory is wrong, there are no known materials strong enough to support a Ceries size (diameter= 1000 km) hollow sphere interior of the moon. Gravity would collapse such a hollow unless it was inflated by volitiles at about one million PSI = pounds per square inch. Neil <font color="yellow"><br /><br /><font color="white">Both the moon/ mars have no magnetic field; since in the case of mars; it is 25% smaller than the earth, and as a result it's iron core cooled down along time ago. As for the moon it is nothing but pure mantel. You don't have to be a geologist to figure the tectonics for this problem. So tell me professor nexium were are you getting all this supposable <font color="orange">geo thermal heat</font> </font><br /><br /><font color="orange">It may be wishful thinking, but I prefer to believe the moon and Mars both have small, but important amounts of geo thermal heat. If we had only examed Earth to the degree we have examed The Moon and Mars, would we have determined (rather than theorized) that Earth has geo thermal heat? Do modest amounts of geo thermal heat have to produce earthquakes and volcanos? I think not. Neil </font><br /><br /><font color="white">What does this have to do w/ the price of tea in China?</font>/safety_wrapper></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

I think that nexium makes a valid point when he says there may be <br />"...no present mechanisms for forming caves on... Mars.... <br />On the other hand there are few mechanisms to destroy caves... that may have been formed when, <br />and if, conditions were different a very long time ago."<br /><br />The more images we get from Mars orbiters, the more features <br />we see similar to those formed by water, volcanism and other geologic <br />processes on Earth. Why not caves? Sure, they may have been formed a long time ago, <br />but if so, why wouldn't they still be there? And if they are there, they offer an <br />alternative to the environment on the surface. <br />An alternative that life may be taking advantage of right now. Although, as on Earth, <br />life may just as well be found in 'solid' rock beneath Mars' surface <br />as in a cave.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"Do modest amounts of geo thermal heat have to produce earthquakes and volcanos? I think not." -- nexium<br /><br />"What does this have to do w/ the price of tea in China?" -- marcel_leonard</font><br /><br />It may not have much to do with the price of tea in China, but sub-volcanic heat sources on <br />Mars would be a <b>very</b> interesting place to look for life. And I wonder how many Mars scientists <br />would be willing to state unequivically that such heat sources will not be found. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[marcel_leonard]

If Mars' iron core is in fact cold than; the geo-thermal heat that you are referring would be very unlikely. Then again they maybe some left over black body heat underground. <br /><br />The original question was meant to stimulate debate about the possiblity of finding natural earthlike habitats under the martian surface? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"If Mars' iron core is in fact cold..."</font><br /><br />My own non-expert thoughts: Mars has no magnetic field because it has <br />no molten iron core undergoing motion by convection. <b>However</b>, solid does <br />not mean cold, it doesn't even mean completely solid. Just solid enough to limit <br />convection. I also wonder about the possibility of heating by radiactive decay <br />deep below the surface.<br /><br />There has been speculation that orbital images of some craters on Mars have shown <br />evidence of large sudden flows of water from layers beneath the crater rim. <br />If this were the case, what would be left in place of the large volume of water once <br />it left the layer from which it was liberated? A cave?<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mousebot]

Here's a conversation on the creation of concrete from lunar materials. Apparently it's good stuff. I guess if you can get some excavators to the Moon and dig some sub lunar colonies all you need now is to find this polar ice hiding in the crater shadows. <br /><br />http://yarchive.net/space/science/lunar_concrete.html

 

[marcel_leonard]

<font color="yellow">My own non-expert thoughts: Mars has no magnetic field because it has <br />no molten iron core undergoing motion by convection. </font><br /><br />According to geology/ astrophysic theories mars had a molten core during it's early formation. It's simply cooled off quicker than the earth; due to it's lack of mass. Think of a large, and small baked potate: Which one do you think will cool of first? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[mousebot]

nexium<br /><br />"there are few mechanisms to distroy caves"<br /><br />I hate to burst your bubble but there is a mechanism to destroy caves in both places if you look at the images of the surface. Looking at one of these photos you will notice heavy cratering due to meteorite impacts. Every time this happens you’ll get shock waves through the crust and any caves will be weakened and over time they will collapse.<br />

 

[craigmac]

My question is can't some of these caves sustain earthlike environments? When you look at the alien environments of some of the caves found here on earth; I can't help but think we might discover underground cells with liquid water, and a some what breathable atmosphere. <br /><br />Although must of the Martian poles are 80% frozen CO2; there still remains 20% frozen O2. Imagine an antartic type habitat being built on one of the poles where we could access frozen O2; in order to develope an air, and fuel supply...

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...can't some of these caves sustain earthlike environments?"</font><br />The prospect of caves on Mars providing environmental alternatives to those on the surface, <br />or those in 'solid' rock is intriguing. You are on to something there. Don't spoil it <br />by insisting that there exists the possibility of an Earth-like environment in such a cave. Specifically, <br />I have yet to see any suggestion of the possibility of significant amounts of O2 on Mars.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"...the Martian poles are 80% frozen CO2; there still remains 20% frozen O2."</font><br />If the frozen material at the Martian poles is 80% CO2, I would presume that the remaining <br />20% is frozen H2O. I don't know where you got the idea that it was O2.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nexium]

Hi marcel: I don't think hardly any scientists think the<br /> magnetic field of Earth (or tectonics) makes the interior<br /> more than slightly hotter. Tide effects warm both Earth<br /> and moon a few degrees. The heat comes mostly from<br /> radioactive materials. The denser isotopes are likely<br /> less abundent in the moon, but potassium 40 may be<br /> more abundent. I agree, the smaller size means less<br /> heat from long ago, but that may mean the average<br /> interior temperature is 373 degrees k instead of<br /> 1100 k for the average temperature of Earth's interior.<br /> 373 k is the boiling point of water at one atmosphere<br /> of pressure.<br /> Professor is a great compliment; I learned most of my<br /> science from forums such as space.com Neil

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...just looks like some depressions."</font><br /><br />Depressions on the surface can be the result of collapsed caves. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mousebot]

It's a big planet, I think Mars is far more likely to have caves than the moon, probably toward the polar regions because there it would be more likely to find some still intact, if you look at the map you will see there are fewer impacts there. By big planet I mean relative to a human, not relative to other planets.

 

[marcel_leonard]

I think you're confusing plate tectonics w/ magnetic fields. Think of plate tectonics as cracks on the surface of a hard boiled egg. Anytime you apply pressure to the sides of the the egg; there is movement to the individual cracks. If you continue to boil the cracked egg you will find that the cracks will continue to expand as the inner core of the egg becomes hotter, and these same cracks will contract as you take the egg out of the boiling water and let it cool in a refrigerator.<br /><br />Because of the mutual origin of the planets in our system; I would bet that all of the terrestrial planets [ie. mer, ven, ear, mars] all have caves, as well as the GG satillites... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[silylene old]

<i>All others terrestrial worlds probably only have caves formed from volcanic processes, or talus caves, which are formed from rock slides and collapses. <br /></i><br /><br />You forget ice caves. There are many well known ice caves in the world, some large, some surprisingly long-lived. Here is an example of one of the best known ice caves, which gives tours to visitors: http://www.eisriesenwelt.at/<br /><br />I consider ice caves to be the most likely natural habitat on Mars or some of the icey moons. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"All others terrestrial worlds probably only have caves formed from volcanic processes..."</font><br /><br />Why do you think that Mars, which has much evidence for <b>massive</b> flows of surface water (flood plains, river networks), would not also have caves carved out by subsurface water flow? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>