Natural Habitats on Moon/Mars

[jatslo]

That is a personal choice. There are many individuals, including me, who are willing to go to the Moon.<br /><br />Pay me $1000.00 an hour 24/7 and I will go turn some screws, nuts, and bolts. I think $1000.00 an hour is fair.<br /><br />I worked on a boat in Alaska for 3 months straight. I can sure as heck work out of a tin can for 6 months.<br /><br />--- Jatslo

 

[spayss]

You are mistaken if you think living on the Moon would be anything like living on a boat in Alaska. Apples and oranges.<br /><br /> The people chosen for a moon base will be those with a realistic idea of what to expect. <br />

 

[jatslo]

Your going to need a heck of a lot more than just the traditional 7 person crew. TBM's and the supporting equipment will require hundreds of people on the Moon. <br /><br />How many biospheres will it take to feed 100 hard working individuals? How many people can we shuttle back and forth from the Moon? Could we shuttle four or five hundred people at a time?<br /><br />This sounds like a job for the Army Core of Engineers ;o)<br />NASA can figure out how to get them to the Moon, keep the alive, and then get them back home safely.<br /><br />I'm too old, but I am willing to go ;o)<br /><br />--- Jatslo

 

[marcel_leonard]

<font color="yellow">Jatslo-<br />How many biospheres will it take to feed 100 hard working individuals? How many people can we shuttle back and forth from the Moon? Could we shuttle four or five hundred people at a time?</font><br /><br />All the more reason to hurry up and develop Affordable Space Delivery Systems, or ASDS....[copyrigth 2005 Marcel Leonard] <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[jatslo]

That transatlantic 500 seat jumbo jet that the UK just advertised recently could be modified to shuttle 500 Army Core of Engineer workers to the Moon. If it behaved like a harrier jet, it could land on the Moon. We would have to build cryogenic engines to replace the intake type, and reinforce the hull. 500 people weighing on the average of 145 lbs, would make up about 75, 000 lbs alone. Something like this could be assembled in space, like the space station is being assembled, and then a few pilots can test run it a few times to work out the bugs.<br /><br />Rocket Fuel Pollution (RFP) is going to be a big problem, so any Affordable Space Delivery System (ASDS) is going to have to evolve into something that is environmentally safe. I am surprised that nobody has tested -electromagnetism, or -gravity type delivery systems. What is the status of that 20 mile long EMI rail gun space shuttle project?<br /><br />--- Jatslo

 

[jatslo]

I hope terraforming is part of that 5000 year equation of yours.<br /><br />When I was in Alaska working on a boat, it was pretty depressing to say the least. We docked in Kodiak once a month to transfer cargo and party with the locals. Working all the time helped pass the time, and we were motivated by greed, mostly. The absence of entertainment, and being confined to one small area for long times was insane. It would have been much better, if we were allowed to take our families and loved ones with us. I was going insane thinking of my girlfriend most of the time.<br /><br />Confinement to small places would be very bad, so a habitat would need to be huge, and diverse with entertainment. Many miles of tunnels, biospheres, and surface dwellings. Gravity, or the lack of gravity on the Moon is a big problem. It may only be possible to spend a max of one year on the Moon. Mars could equate to longer stays. The Moon is basically a bus station to most individuals, and the scientists and workers would need to be rotated.<br /><br />--- Jatslo

 

[marcel_leonard]

<font color="yellow">stevehw33-<br />Realistically, Space technologies are so thoroughly transforming and different, & space is so vast, it will be the better part of the next few thousands of years before we reach any kind of stable space colonies and cultures. </font><br /><br />Your assement would be accurate if we were to say propose building a metropolitan downtown shopping center on the Moon/Mars; what I'm proposing is simply a few biospheres connected by TBM tunnels. Within our generation we will have the robotic technology to conducted all of the construction management and civil engineering remotely from Earth. While all of the actual construction and assembly will be done through automation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[jatslo]

Why do you think we will come up with robots that can drill tunnels any time soon? If there were robots around that could handle the workload, then these robots should also be utilized on Earth, but they are not.<br /><br />Both your statements are good forward looking statements, but what about now?<br /><br />What are we going to do, put an individual on the Moon again? We already did that.<br /><br />--- Jatslo

 

[fatjoe]

Not to mention the advancements we are making in AI, Expert, and Logic Systems. Within a few generations we could human replicants welcoming us w/ freshly preparing biosphere generated fruits/vegetables, when we visit our summer resorts on Moon/Mars. Complete with Artificial Sunlight, Sandy Beaches, and Tropical Rain....

 

[spayss]

Computer mining drills? that's not the issue. 'Drills' whether computer controlled or man-operated are physical machines doing physical work. They need constant (hourly) maintenance and adjustment. They need warehouses full of spare parts and workshops full of skilled mechanics. <br /><br /> Any remotely controlled drills to create habitation on the Moon or elsewhere will be unproven technology that will have a thousand parts...ten thousand bolts.. and any of which wil break down on a given day.<br /><br /> A mining operation, even on Earth is like a military fighter jet...for every pilot who flies there's a huge infrastructure. A drill in a mining operation is the same. <br /><br /> Think of the ISS. We barely have the technology to know whether an astronaut on board has the right wrench to unfasten a bolt on a space walk. Now multiply that a thousand times all 'by remote'.

 

[craigmac]

New Signs of Recent Glaciers, Volcanoes and Flowing Water on Mars

 

[fatjoe]

With the new expert systems and JAVA technologies we currently have at our disposal; we could probably conduct a simple experiment on Mars's surface now. For example use AI to build a small habitat for a hamster where it could survive comfortably for a least a year…

 

[fatjoe]

How can we ever seriously talk about a mission to the Moon/Mars if the 85% of the cost is tied up to just getting off the surface of the planet Earth. Until we have some serious reduction in launch cost we won't be exploring deep space or other planets anytime soon...

 

[spayss]

Are you serious? The technology to keep a Hamster alive for a year on the Martian surface comfortably would cost billions of dollars...most of it in developing new technology.<br /><br />

 

[fatjoe]

If we can keep a hamster alive for at least that long; maybe we should rethink send humans there huh?

 

[craigmac]

If we are truly serious about going back to the Moon and setting up a base of operations there we better do a better job on our lunar geology then we did in 1972. We also better explore some lunar caves, and sub-lunar terrain. Because whether we decide to go to either Mars, or the Moon subterranean habits make the best economic sense for setting a base of operations since both Mars and the Moon have cold cores chances are there is is no tectonic activity so we won’t have to worry about cave-ins.<br />

 

[Swampcat]

Kinda off topic here, but I'm curious why you and marcel_leonard have the same posting style? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[marcel_leonard]

I happen to like your style Craig:<br /><br />One of the biggest problems with a base of operation on either the Moon, or Mars will be locating water. From photos you can see the polar caps on Mars, but if I’m not mistaken must of that ice is made up of frozen CO2 instead of H2O. If it turns out to be made up some H2O we could probably setup a permanent base on the Martian poles.<br /><br />As for the Moon I don’t think that scientist have yet to find any water on the Moon. Perhaps there is some water to be found underground.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[marcel_leonard]

We will have to recreate all the conditions on the Moon/Mars that we have here on the Earth if we plan any long term stay on either body... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..." </div>

 

[craigmac]

I have heard mention of using Destiny-class or Bigelow habitation modules as part of the transport ship to Mars. Well how about use them as part the Lunar and Martian bases of operation. I like the idea of having inflatable habitats that we can quickly setup, and move into sort of like an inflatable camping tent.

 

[crix]

That's kinda creepy.

 

[craigmac]

The reason I ask if there have been any definite sightings of water on both the Moon/Mars is that both bodies have Polar Regions and early on in the formation of the solar system were bombarded by ice bearing comets. I would think that by analyzing astronomic photos of the polar of sites would have discovered deposits of frozen H2O.<br /><br />Before we send any manned mission to either site we must first establish the presents of water as a priority. I would think that some intelligent PhD at the JPL has proposed such a polar expedition. Preferably w/ some robotic water analysis capability.<br />

 

[3488]

I think that both of the above are correct. Water provision will be biggest headache in humna returningm to the moon & going onto Mars. <br /><br />Regarding water under the surface of Mars. I think that the idea of water percolating down to the upper mantle of Mars is a sound idea. The only problem I can see with it however, is that we still do not know how long ago the upper mantle of Mars cooled. <br /><br />I understand that the core of Mars will almost certainly be molten still, but because it rotates with the rest of Mars, it does not generate internal convection, thus not genereating a magnetosphere.<br /><br />Also many of the large sheild volcanoes show few impact craters, thus igniting the debate, are the volcanoes on Mars really extinct? If they are not, then clearly there is still molten silicate rock closer to the surface in many places. <br /><br />I have not seen the minerology maps of Mars as yet from the 2001 Mars Odyssey, particularly the volcanic areas. These would clearly show hydrated minerals, & will also show if molten rock had passed through underground ice. This is most important field of study.<br /><br />MARSIS aboard the ESA should help solve this, & hopefully the radar aboard MRO will also assist. I thought that it was already proven that ice existed at the Martian polar regions..<br /><br />Regarding the moon. I think that this is less clear cut. It is a nice idea that the permanently shadowed craters at the moon's poles may contain ice delivered by comets & ice rich asteroids. But I have doubts, mainly as I think the moon's current rotational axis is not the original one. <br /><br />I think that the luner Marias on the near side mark the moon's original equator, & the large basins on the far side, follow this idea well (in other words I think that the moon has tilted North wards & that the original lunar north pole is well over on the far side & that the original lunar south pole is well to the south of Tycho). <br /><br></br> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[craigmac]

There have been proposals of building very large arrays (VLA) for collecting solar power on the Moon; then beaming this stored energy via microwave radiation back to the earth. In a lot of ways the Moon can be looked upon as a natural space station, and if we find water on our near the polar regions of said Moon; It could every well be capable of being adapted greenhouse like habitats we could conduct farming, the production of potable water, and of course rocket fuel.

 

[craigmac]

I like the idea of inflatable space stations, Martian, and lunar bases of operation. It would seem to me the most expeditious and cost effective to setup temporary bases while in the process of setting up long term bases of operation. As a matter of fact this would even solve the problems of the shortage of space on the ISS.