Phoenix Mars Lander.

3488 · Mar 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I just noticed this is the same day as Discovery is scheduled to launch on the next shuttle mission! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> And within minutes of each other freind. Just as STS-124 Discovery is reaching orbit, Phoenix hopefully will have soft landed in Scandia Colles on Mars. Below view of sky at noon Friday 28th March 2008 from the Phoenix site. http://www.thespaceport.us/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=8954 <img id="ipb-attach-img-8945-0-17118900-1206820033" style="cursor

ointer" class="ipb" src="http://thespaceport.us/forum/uploads/monthly_03_2008/post-774-1206747008_thumb.png" alt="Attached Image" title="Click to view full image" width="500" height="375" /> <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="display:inline;width:auto" id="ipb-attach-table-8945-0-24365100-1206747070"><tbody><tr><td>

brandbll · Mar 28, 2008

I'm sure this has probably been answered, but this thread it too long, and pluck is too slow, for me to go back and look through this thread.  So i'll just pose it again.Why did they choose to send a lander opposed to a rover when they have had so much success with the two rovers? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

centsworth_II · Mar 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Why did they choose to send a lander opposed to a rover when they have had so much success with the two rovers? Posted by brandbll</DIV> This mission was not designed  from scratch.  It uses an existing lander that was mothballed after the failure of the Mars Polar Lander that was to land near the south pole.  Using this existing equipment allows the mission to be done much more cheaply than building a new craft.  The only other alternative would be no mission at all.  Look at the trouble they are having finding the money to pay for the MSL rover mission to launch, hopefully, in 2009. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

brandbll · Mar 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This mission was not designed  from scratch.  It uses an existing lander that was mothballed after the failure of the Mars Polar Lander that was to land near the south pole.  Using this existing equipment allows the mission to be done much more cheaply than building a new craft.  The only other alternative would be no mission at all.  Look at the trouble they are having finding the money to pay for the MSL rover mission to launch, hopefully, in 2009. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>That makes sense.  I figured it might have been because it was landing in an area that doesn't get a lot of sun, which would have made it difficult to power the vehicle.  How long is the Phoenix lander suppose to last once, and if, it successfully touches down? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

3488 · Mar 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That makes sense.  I figured it might have been because it was landing in an area that doesn't get a lot of sun, which would have made it difficult to power the vehicle.  How long is the Phoenix lander suppose to last once, and if, it successfully touches down? Posted by brandbll</DIV>Centsworth_II is correct. Phoenix is the same spacecraft that had been mothballed the 2001 Mars Surveyor.Mars Surveyor 2001 was due to have launched on Tuesday 3rd April 2001 & land on Mars on: Sunday 27th January 2002.Link below, to potential Mars 2001 landing sites. http://web99.arc.nasa.gov/~vgulick/MSLS99_Wkshp/Barlow_Highland_abs.pdfThis mission was cancelled following the double fiasco with Mars Climate Orbiter & the Mars Polar Lander failures.The former Mars 2001 Surveyor spacecraft has been completely refurbished, reprogrammed & alterations made to make a high latitude landing possible & has since gone through the mother of all pre-launch testing as well as a rigourous testing regime on route. After landing, Phoenix is expected to have a 90 Sol primary mission. Phoenix lands in the very late Martian northern Spring. The Summer Solstice at the site is only three days after that on Earth (24th June verses 21st June). The end of the primary mission will end at our equivalent of early August, when the Sun will be getting lower & setting for longer. As the start of the primary mission, Phoenix will be under constant 24/7 sunlight, the Martian Midnight Sun will be visible here, hopefully some movies will be made of the Martian Midnight Sun swooping low over the northern horizon @ midnight.The mission could well last considerably longer, dependent on local weather. I hope Phoenix will last pass the Autumn Equinox, when the very first CO2 frost may start appearing.Phoenix WILL NOT survive the Winter. Firstly the Sun will not rise (though there will be bright twilight as the Sun approaches 2 degrees below the southern horizon at midday on the Winter Solstice), but also, there is likely to be a layer approx 2 metres deep of frozen CO2  & temperatures approaching minus 140 Celsius. The lowest temperature survived on the Martian surface thus far is minus 117 Celsius by Viking 2 in May 1978, from the site in Utopia Planitia, but Viking 2 was RTG powered. Whether or not Pheonix will surpass that remains unknown, though I suspect due to the northerly latitude Phoenix has been designed for that & colder.At the warmest time of the Martian northern Summer at the site, the temperature may rise as high as *minus 20 Celsius, during a heat wave at the landing site, but for much of the time, it will be much colder than that.Below noon on the Mid Winter Solstice @ the Phoenix site on: Friday 22nd May 2009.<img id="ipb-attach-img-8955-0-17204900-1206820033" style="cursor

ointer" class="ipb" src="http://thespaceport.us/forum/uploads/monthly_03_2008/post-774-1206802836_thumb.png" alt="Attached Image" title="Click to view full image" width="500" height="375" />* Edited as exoscientist / Bob Clark pointed out a minor error & I have corrected it.http://www.thespaceport.us/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=8954Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

exoscientist · Mar 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>....At the warmest time of the Martian northern Summer at the site, the temperature may rise as high as minus 40 Celsius, during a heat wave at the landing site, but for much of the time, it will be much colder than that.Below noon on the Mid Winter Solstice @ the Phoenix site on: Friday 22nd May 2009.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV>  Thanks for that informative post. But I'm curious about where you got the -40C maximum temperature from. I've seen both modeled temperatures and actual TES measurements that give the maximum temperature as in the range of -25C to -20C at the latitude of the Phoenix landing site.    Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Mar 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Thanks for that informative post. But I'm curious about where you got the -40C maximum temperature from. I've seen both modeled temperatures and actual TES measurements that give the maximum temperature as in the range of -25C to -20C at the latitude of the Phoenix landing site.    Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Hi Bob, my mistake, I own up to it.The info I had actually mentioned minus 40 C being the warmest that Phoenix can expect at the START of the mission, with it getting warmer AFTER the Solstice (like Earth). Sorry Bob, that was my mistake. I have re-worded the post above. Thank you for pulling me up on it.I am pleased however, that someone with your incredible knowledge liked what I had said.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

keermalec · Mar 31, 2008

Lol, is it me or do NASA videos look more and more like movie traillers?link <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> “An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” John F. Kennedy </div>

Andrey992 · Apr 1, 2008

I was wondering, will nasa TV cover the landing in live? if not that what is the best place to view it live, if it possible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Apr 1, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I was wondering, will nasa TV cover the landing in live? if not that what is the best place to view it live, if it possible. Posted by Andrey992</DIV>Hi Andrey992.Believe you me, you will not be alone in trying to find out this. Usually NASATV has live coverage, but have not seen anything officially as yet. Well the big day is now NEXT MONTH. eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!!!!!!!!!!Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Lol, is it me or do NASA videos look more and more like movie traillers? Posted by keermalec</DIV>Hi Keermalec, Yes that does look like a movie trailer. Great bit of film, but yes, certainly looks more appropriate on the silver screen.Landing Countdown:54 Days. 0 Hour. 10 Minutes & 30 Seconds.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Apr 2, 2008

From what I understand they are planning to cover it live. I recall reading in this or the STS-124 thread that should STS-124 launch on the same day, one will be on the public channel, the other on the media channel. However, we've been informed the STS-124 launch is likely to be delayed a few days so there will be no conflict. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Apr 2, 2008

Great interview with one of the Phoenix scientists here:http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2008/04/phoenix-special-interview-with-mark.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

abq_farside · Apr 9, 2008

Landing Countdown Days: 46 Hours: 4 Minutes: 24 Seconds: 00 Where is Phoenix Now? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Don't let who you are keep you from becoming who you want to be! </div>

MeteorWayne · Apr 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Landing Countdown Days: 46Hours: 4Minutes: 24Seconds: 00Where is Phoenix Now? Posted by abq_farside</DIV>http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/news/release.php?ArticleID=1662 NASA Spacecraft Fine Tunes Course for Mars Landing April 10, 2008 PASADENA, Calif. -- NASA engineers have adjusted the flight path of the Phoenix Mars Lander, setting the spacecraft on course for its May 25 landing on the Red Planet. "This is our first trajectory maneuver targeting a specific location in the northern polar region of Mars," said Brian Portock, chief of the Phoenix navigation team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. The mission's two prior trajectory maneuvers, made last August and October, adjusted the flight path of Phoenix to intersect with Mars. NASA has conditionally approved a landing site in a broad, flat valley informally called "Green Valley." A final decision will be made after NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter takes additional images of the area this month. The orbiter's High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment camera has taken more than three dozen images of the area. Analysis of those images prompted the Phoenix team to shift the center of the landing target 13 kilometers (8 miles) southeastward, away from slightly rockier patches to the northwest. Navigators used that new center for planning today's maneuver. The landing area is an ellipse about 62 miles by about 12 miles (100 kilometers by 20 kilometers). Researchers have mapped more than five million rocks in and around that ellipse, each big enough to end the mission if hit by the spacecraft during landing. Knowing where to avoid the rockier areas, the team has selected a scientifically exciting target that also offers the best chances for the spacecraft to set itself down safely onto the Martian surface <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Apr 11, 2008

Time to landing 44 days 4 hours, 35 minutes <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

CalliArcale · Apr 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>but also, there is likely to be a layer approx 2 metres deep of frozen CO2  & temperatures approaching minus 140 Celsius. Posted by 3488</DIV>Dude!  2 meters of dry ice snow.  Wow.  I can see where that would be a problem.  Pity the probe won't survive the winter, but it'll be neat to see what they squeeze out of it, science wise, as the end approaches.  The primary mission will be great, but I just find something really exciting about seeing what the engineers and scientists manage to come up with for squeezing the last little bit of usefulness out of these things.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

3488 · Apr 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/news/release.php?ArticleID=1662NASA Spacecraft Fine Tunes Course for Mars LandingApril 10, 2008PASADENA, Calif. -- NASA engineers have adjusted the flight path of the Phoenix Mars Lander, setting the spacecraft on course for its May 25 lan............ Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Cheers Wayne, Super update, see they've moved the centre of the landing ellipse slightly south east. Hope they do not have to move it further south, as the far northern latitude is the real attraction. Hopefully we get to see the MRO HiRISE images that have prompted the slight move.  Not long now.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Dude!  2 meters of dry ice snow.  Wow.  I can see where that would be a problem.  Pity the probe won't survive the winter, but it'll be neat to see what they squeeze out of it, science wise, as the end approaches.  The primary mission will be great, but I just find something really exciting about seeing what the engineers and scientists manage to come up with for squeezing the last little bit of usefulness out of these things. Posted by CalliArcale</DIV>Hi CalliArcale,I really hope that Phoenix makes it past the Martian northern Hemisphere Autumn Equinox, which falls on: Sunday 10th January 2009. After which, there should be the first signs of water & even CO2 frosts. Whether or not Phoenix makes that far is just pure speculation, but lets hope.  The primary mission is awesome. Hopefully the first successful landing in the polar region of another planet (though NEAR / Shoemaker did land near the south pole of Asteroid 433 Eros), hopefully get new insights into the Martian Arctic & history, not to mention, hopefully the first observations of the Martian Midnight Sun (I've already submitted a request of a movie of the Sun swooping low over the northern horizon @ midnight).This mission is incredible & it annoys me when people moan, saying that it is only landing & digging holes, (landing on Mars is far from routine & is still a very special event) something we have already done with the Viking landers, but my arguement is that Phoenix's mission does not require roving & will still provide a complete new data set, from the surface of Mars in a very different location, to anywhere that we have been before (so far no two landing sites have been alike, all have been different).Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Apr 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Cheers Wayne, Super update, see they've moved the centre of the landing ellipse slightly south east. Hope they do not have to move it further south, as the far northern latitude is the real attraction. Hopefully we get to see the MRO HiRISE images that have prompted the slight move.   Not long now. Posted by 3488</DIV>Hope so. I haven't had time to drill into the details, just reporting the news as it came out.Now thatr a landing location is more defined, I assume 3488 will zero us in. That's why we love him

(All tenses in this message are tuned for maximum ironic effect. Any tenses that seem not irionic and appreciative are wrong....)Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Apr 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hope so. I haven't had time to drill into the details, just reporting the news as it came out.Now thatr a landing location is more defined, I assume 3488 will zero us in. That's why we love him

(All tenses in this message are tuned for maximum ironic effect. Any tenses that seem not irionic and appreciative are wrong....)Wayne Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne, I will attempt to find those images. My pooter has been doing a few weird things, like submitting my last post, before I could answer Calli's post. Seems to be OK now though.Anyway, thank you so much for your update, it is always very good to be kept informed. The fact there does appear to be boulders & rocks, whilst from an engineering viewpoint are nighmarish, are useful to help determine the chemical makeup of the local area (Mars Pathfinder in Ares Vallis was different, as Pathfinder was deliberately sent to a site, where rocks were washed down from far away, hence Pathfinder has a great Grab Bag of many differing types of Martian Rocks).We'll see hopefully, assuming a successful landing.View of Sun & Mercury / Venus conjunction from Phoenix landing site on Mars. Friday 11th April 2008 @ 21:54 UTC.http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixlander11thaprtr0.gif <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/6/c592b86a-7847-4dd8-b691-3d3312a44fb1.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

nimbus · Apr 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Dude!  2 meters of dry ice snow.  Wow.  I can see where that would be a problem.  Pity the probe won't survive the winter, but it'll be neat to see what they squeeze out of it, science wise, as the end approaches.  The primary mission will be great, but I just find something really exciting about seeing what the engineers and scientists manage to come up with for squeezing the last little bit of usefulness out of these things.  Posted by CalliArcale</DIV> It's probably just my simplistic picture of the thing, but that means ice 2 meters below the surface, or 2 meters of ice-rich soil - the probe isn't going to fire its landing thrusters at 2 meters of ice, is it? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Apr 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It's probably just my simplistic picture of the thing, but that means ice 2 meters below the surface, or 2 meters of ice-rich soil - the probe isn't going to fire its landing thrusters at 2 meters of ice, is it? Posted by nimbus</DIV>Hi nimbus,Calli was correct. During the Winter, CO2 snow will accumulate on the surface & by the Spring Equinox, it will be 2 metres deep on the surface with temperatures approaching -140 C.We know that Phoenix will be buried, perhaps the top of the camera mast may just stick up above it, though even that is doubtfull. During late Spring, Summer & early Autmn it will melt & Phoenix will be exposed again. Wonder if JPL will attempt to wake Phoenix, when the CO2 snows evaporate?Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

Philotas · Apr 12, 2008

Hi Andrew,does any of the CO2/H2O fall from the sky as snow, or does it all deposite (desublimate)? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Apr 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Andrew,does any of the CO2/H2O fall from the sky as snow, or does it all deposite (desublimate)? Posted by Philotas</DIV>Hi Philotas,It will be in the form of thickening frost deposits, not actually snow. CO2 & H2O will be accumulating as frost, as it is drawn in from warmer areas further south.With Phoenix with its very large upward (average solar intencity on Mars is only 44% of that on Earth, not to mention the high 68 degrres North latitude thrown in) pointing solar arrays, will collect an awful lot of this, possibly causing them to snap off during the Winter despite the 38% Earth gravity on Mars.AFAIK, Mars does not have precipitation from clouds as we do on Earth. Mars does have frosts, mists & fogs, but not actual snow.Unless Jon Clarke or exoscientist (Bob Clark) know otherwise.Below a 250 metre wide area in the centre of the Phoenix landing ellipse. MRO HiRISE.http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=250metrewidepatchincentvi3.jpgBelow same image but enlarged & sharpened up a bit.http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=250metrewidepatchincenttz8.jpg <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/1/704f6963-cd4a-4538-b181-40a2fe1ad85c.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

exoscientist · Apr 13, 2008

There has been suggestive evidence of CO2 snow in the polar regions of Mars:December 06, 2001 LASER ALTIMETER PROVIDES FIRST MEASUREMENTS OF SEASONAL SNOW DEPTH ON MARS http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20011206molaice.htmlCarbon dioxide snow storms during the polar night on Mars. JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 107, NO. E7, 5051, 2002 http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2002/2001JE001758.shtml The possibility of H2O snow on Mars has generally been discounted because of the low amounts of water vapor in Mars atmosphere. However, I believe there are cases of low lying water ice clouds that give the appearance of dense precipitation bearing clouds, rather than the high altitude, thin cirrus-like clouds most often seen on Mars, as in this Mars Express image of the Valles Marineris system: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/3/ec0472aa-52be-4ca3-b32e-e4270389297b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />and in this Viking Orbiter image of Noctis Labyrinthus:Colorful Water Clouds Over Mars http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010417.html   Bob Clark    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Andrey992 · Apr 14, 2008

Your Question Has Been Answered The question you submitted to the Phoenix Mars Mission ask the team has been answered. Your question was: Will NASA TV cover the landing? The answer to your question is: Yes, NASA TV will cover the landing on May 25. We should get the first signals back around 4:53 PDT. We appreciate your interest in the Phoenix Mars Mission! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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