Photon details

[undidly]

I must not hog the gravity and magnetism thread so I started this one.Copied part of the last post and my reply to start this one on an interesting point.


Re: Gravity and Magnetism

Postby undidly » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:53 am

origin wrote:

""The graph you refer to shows that the strength of the magnetic field goes with the strength of the electric field. the fields do NOT propagate like that through space.""

You are right.



You are wrong. Look at Maxwells equations, the electric field and the magnetic field are in phase. You asked where does the energy go, it doesn't go anywhere, the enegy is the wave and the is made up of the oscillating fields. Since the AC voltage varies in the form of a sine wave, when passes through zero, is there no current in the line? If you do a straight addition of the voltage over 1 cycle the voltage is zero. Do you think that means there is no current?

The graphic is wrong.



The graphic is correct. Find a graphic on the web that shows the magnetic field and the electric field out of phase for electromagnetic radiation. Do you really think that everyone copied the wrong graphic? :lol: Go to the library and look in any physics book (holy crap all the books got it wrong too!!)

The difference in phase of the electric and magnetic parts determines the direction of the photon.
No difference ,no propagation.



Wong, wrong, wrong. The direction of travel is perpendicular to the field directions. Again this is shown in the Maxwell equations.

This graphic is one amongst many that are wrong.



Oh no, ALL of the graphics are wrong - according to you. Like I said find one that is 'right'.

Do the illustrators misunderstand the instructions of the scientist who says to draw something?.



No you do not understand. There is nothing bad about being wrong - but it is a problem when you can't admitt you are wrong. Are you really so arrogant to think that all the physics books and the entire web has it wrong and they need you to point it out to them. :roll:

edited to make my responses sound more like the english language.

Undidly starts here.

Too many questions for one post.

Propagation is at right angles to the electric and magnetic fields.
Did you think I meant some other direction?.
In the graphic the wave is moving toward us.
How would the graphic be different for a photon moving away?.

This is important.How does the photon "know" which direction to travel.Toward or away.

The graphic is in the second post in the gravity and magnetism topic.If you know how to move the graphic here
please go ahead.

 

[origin]

In the graphic the wave is moving toward us.
How would the graphic be different for a photon moving away?.

The direction of travel is in the direction of the increasing and then decreasing electric and magnetic fields.

This is important.How does the photon "know" which direction to travel.Toward or away.

I am not sure what you mean. How does a sound wave know which direction to travel? How do ripples in a pond know which way to travel when a rock is thown into a pond?

The graphic is in the second post in the gravity and magnetism topic.If you know how to move the graphic here
please go ahead.

 

[undidly]

In the graphic the wave is moving toward us.
How would the graphic be different for a photon moving away?.

The direction of travel is in the direction of the increasing and then decreasing electric and magnetic fields.

--------True,but the same for both directions-------

This is important.How does the photon "know" which direction to travel.Toward or away.

--------Is the graphic the same for a photon going the other way---------

--------I see the line drawing m e and direction.That is how the photon gets its direction.Someones left or right hand rule for motors or generators.Sounds right to me.-----------


I am not sure what you mean. How does a sound wave know which direction to travel? How do ripples in a pond know which way to travel when a rock is thown into a pond?

-----Gas molecules push the next molecule in the same direction.Continues in a straight line until acted upon (Newton).-------

-----Water molecules the same-----
-----Molecules have inertia for the Newton thing to work.------

-----Photons do not have inertia.Each part of the wave depends on the collapse of the previous wave of the other type
which is at right angles.I understand that the photon direction is given by the LH or RH rule but not why the e and m are in phase.
My concern about the e and m going to zero at the same time was a complete misunderstanding.
The waves do not go up and down.The up part is always up,the down part is always down.The wave just moves along.
Measured at one location the wave seems to be going up and down because different parts of the wave are observed.

This next paragraph is all measured at one point as the wave passes.
What makes the magnetic component?.Must be the displacement current from the CHANGING electric component.
But the maximum current is when the electric is changing at its maximum rate which is as it passes through zero.
At the peak of the electric there is no rate of change so no displacement current,so no magnetic.
Next the electric begins to fall and the current reverses so the magnet field should reverse.
That all means the electric peak lines up with magnetic zero.

The LH,RH rule for the direction of the photon and the last paragraph are incompatible.
If the m is 90 degrees out of phase the photon direction changes twice per wave.Cannot be.Something is wrong.

How can a changing electric field make an in phase magnetic field?. -------------

The graphic is in the second post in the gravity and magnetism topic.If you know how to move the graphic here
please go ahead.

------Thanks for moving the graphic.
------I have the graphic on my HD but can't see how to put it here.
------How did you do that?.

 

[origin]

First of all the moving gif is just an image so I used the img command (I left off the last bracket so you could see the form
http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/emanim.gif[/img, this only works for adresses on the net you can't get images off of your hard drive onto space dot com.

As for the changing electric and magnetic fields the best way to understand what is going on is using the maxwell equations. As I recall this is usually discussed in the 3rd semester of a calculus based physics course. James Maxwell combined equations from electricity and magnetism to unite the 2. He and a collaborator (can't recall the name) realized that an electric field will induce a magnetic field and that it will propegate through space. This is of course electromagnetic radiation. The speed of this wave can be calcualted and surprise, surprise the speed is the speed of light. Pretty cool really.

Anyway the point is a [i]changing[/i] electric electric field will induce a magnetic field. Just like a moving charge will induce a magnetic field, and a moving magnetic field will cause a current flow, ala electric motors and generators.

There are alot of good sites that discuss the maxwell equations, I personally think that the wiki site is a little confusing, especially if you do not have much calculus under your belt.

 

[ArcCentral]

So what does a photon look like in real life. I mean, it must have some form. Is the drawing supposed to be what it looks like? If not, we don't know much about a photon then, do we?

 

[neuvik]

So what does a photon look like in real life. ....

Hah, well at a wavelength between 400 nm to 700 nm you can see them with your naked eye.

 

[origin]

So what does a photon look like in real life. I mean, it must have some form. Is the drawing supposed to be what it looks like? If not, we don't know much about a photon then, do we?

You'll love this answer. A photon doesn't look like anything. Tada... A photon is a 'bit' of EM radiation it does not have a definite surface so it doesn't look like anything. In the graphic the photon would be a point along the length, so instead of a continuous wave it woulb be more like a point oscillating along the axis

When we talk about what things look like, a pencil for instance, what we are seeing are the photons emitted from the electron shells of the atoms on the surface of the pencil. Photons of light are absorbed by the electrons in the outer shells of the atoms. The additional energy causes the electrons to jumb to a higher energy state and then almost immediately drop back down to a lower energy state by emitting a new photon. The photon emitted has an energy level that corresponds to the decreased energy of the electron. The energy of the photon for a pencil has a wavelenght that is yellow.

The same question can be asked about an electron - what does an electron look like? Again it does not look like anything. If you bombard an electron with photons hoping to get back reemitted photons to 'see' the electron the best you can get is single photons - sort of a blinking point source. So even with a microscope that has an infinitely high magnification you could not see an electron as anything more than a flash of a single photon.

When you get this small the there is a real fuzzyness about what is a particle and what is a wave. You might think, "yeah, yeah but what does it really look like", the answer really is it doesn't look like anything there is nothing that can be used to described it in our normal everyday experiences.

 

[ArcCentral]

So what does a photon look like in real life. I mean, it must have some form. Is the drawing supposed to be what it looks like? If not, we don't know much about a photon then, do we?

You'll love this answer. A photon doesn't look like anything. Tada... A photon is a 'bit' of EM radiation it does not have a definite surface so it doesn't look like anything. In the graphic the photon would be a point along the length, so instead of a continuous wave it woulb be more like a point oscillating along the axis

When we talk about what things look like, a pencil for instance, what we are seeing are the photons emitted from the electron shells of the atoms on the surface of the pencil. Photons of light are absorbed by the electrons in the outer shells of the atoms. The additional energy causes the electrons to jumb to a higher energy state and then almost immediately drop back down to a lower energy state by emitting a new photon. The photon emitted has an energy level that corresponds to the decreased energy of the electron. The energy of the photon for a pencil has a wavelenght that is yellow.

The same question can be asked about an electron - what does an electron look like? Again it does not look like anything. If you bombard an electron with photons hoping to get back reemitted photons to 'see' the electron the best you can get is single photons - sort of a blinking point source. So even with a microscope that has an infinitely high magnification you could not see an electron as anything more than a flash of a single photon.

When you get this small the there is a real fuzzyness about what is a particle and what is a wave. You might think, "yeah, yeah but what does it really look like", the answer really is it doesn't look like anything there is nothing that can be used to described it in our normal everyday experiences.

I'm a firm believer that whatever exist in this universe, must have form. Not that we will actually see a photons form, but we will logically draw one up some day, and understand it completely for what it is.

 

[origin]

I'm a firm believer that whatever exist in this universe, must have form.

Well, it has substance in that it exists but being able to say this is what it looks like and here is a picture, I am not willing to make that a condition of the universe. We can make models that help us to understand different aspects of a phenomena, but they are just models.

Like 'they' say, many models are useful but all models are wrong.

 

[undidly]

The following site shows E and M 90 degrees out of phase.

http://www.answers.com/topic/heinrich-hertz

About half way down is a graphic of transverse free space electromagnetic waves.

See the electric and magnetic component phase relationship.

I have studied the Maxwell equations and they say E and M are out of phase.

E is the differential of M.
E is max when M CHANGES at its maximum rate.
M is the differential of E.
M is max when E CHANGES at its maximum rate.

In the colored graphic the orange part is the displacement CURRENT not the voltage.The graphic is WRONG.

In a photon the current is in phase with magnetic field but the voltage is not.
The voltage causing the displacement current is 90 degrees phase LAGGED from the current.
The differentiation explains the phase difference and the minus sign (in the Maxwell equation) the phase lag.

 

[origin]

The following site shows E and M 90 degrees out of phase.

http://www.answers.com/topic/heinrich-hertz

About half way down is a graphic of transverse free space electromagnetic waves.

See the electric and magnetic component phase relationship.

I have studied the Maxwell equations and they say E and M are out of phase.

E is the differential of M.
E is max when M CHANGES at its maximum rate.
M is the differential of E.
M is max when E CHANGES at its maximum rate.

In the colored graphic the orange part is the displacement CURRENT not the voltage.The graphic is WRONG.

In a photon the current is in phase with magnetic field but the voltage is not.
The voltage causing the displacement current is 90 degrees phase LAGGED from the current.
The differentiation explains the phase difference and the minus sign (in the Maxwell equation) the phase lag.

First congratulations on finding a graphic that shows the magnetic and electric fields out of phase. It shows real dedication to refusing to learn anything new and to instead hold fast to an incorrect idea. Most people would have given in and accepted the true answer. Cudos!

Secondly, the electric field is not the differential of the magnetic field.
I think you are refering to Maxwells equation for Faradays law. That states that the intergral of the the electric field (E) through any closed curve equals the negative rate of change of the magnetic flux (M) through any surface bounded by that curve.

To determine how the phases of the E and M fields are related you must solve maxwells equation for Ampere's law (with maxwells added displacement-current modification).

The solution to this equation shows clearly that the waves are in phase. The math is really pretty difficult and there is no way I can write it with the limitations of the forum venue and I certainly cannot teach you differential equations (I barely remember them!) in a forum.

So I guess you (for whatever reason you have) can continue to believe whatever you want.

You may continue to remain an island of confusion in a sea of knowledge. Gee, now that was poetic!

 

[undidly]

The following site shows E and M 90 degrees out of phase.

http://www.answers.com/topic/heinrich-hertz

About half way down is a graphic of transverse free space electromagnetic waves.

See the electric and magnetic component phase relationship.

I have studied the Maxwell equations and they say E and M are out of phase.

E is the differential of M.
E is max when M CHANGES at its maximum rate.
M is the differential of E.
M is max when E CHANGES at its maximum rate.

In the colored graphic the orange part is the displacement CURRENT not the voltage.The graphic is WRONG.

In a photon the current is in phase with magnetic field but the voltage is not.
The voltage causing the displacement current is 90 degrees phase LAGGED from the current.
The differentiation explains the phase difference and the minus sign (in the Maxwell equation) the phase lag.

First congratulations on finding a graphic that shows the magnetic and electric fields out of phase. It shows real dedication to refusing to learn anything new and to instead hold fast to an incorrect idea. Most people would have given in and accepted the true answer. Cudos!

Secondly, the electric field is not the differential of the magnetic field.
I think you are refering to Maxwells equation for Faradays law. That states that the intergral of the the electric field (E) through any closed curve equals the negative rate of change of the magnetic flux (M) through any surface bounded by that curve.

To determine how the phases of the E and M fields are related you must solve maxwells equation for Ampere's law (with maxwells added displacement-current modification).

The solution to this equation shows clearly that the waves are in phase. The math is really pretty difficult and there is no way I can write it with the limitations of the forum venue and I certainly cannot teach you differential equations (I barely remember them!) in a forum.

So I guess you (for whatever reason you have) can continue to believe whatever you want.

You may continue to remain an island of confusion in a sea of knowledge. Gee, now that was poetic!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is ambiguity about the meaning of "electric field".
Some sites say it is measured in Volts and others say it measured in Amps.

""Secondly, the electric field is not the differential of the magnetic field.""

If this is true or not to you depends on which meaning you are using.
Please tell me which you use ,volts or amps?.

 

[origin]

The electric field is measured in volts/meter. It can also be defined by the force it exerts on a charged particle. It is the same thing.

The electric field is defined by Gauss's law - one of Maxwells equations.

There is no ambiguity of the meaning of the electric field in physics.

 

[ArcCentral]

Thought I'd post up my rendition of a photon, and how it works. It actually has a shape, unlike previous interpretations in this thread. This first link shows basically the front of a photon, in a sort of 3D look. It's just like the rock in the pond analogy, but the difference is that you are not standing on the shoreline as each wave comes toward you, but instead, you will be dropping your rock from above the pond, and the generating waves will leave the pond up toward you. The direction these waves are travelling in the link below, would be toward the top of your screen, at an average speed of c. The file will take a little time to load, so be patient.


http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1270696795

In this second link we see what a slice of a photon would look like, wherein you will see the front, depicted in blue, and the back of a photon, depicted in red. The direction of motion would also be up toward the top of your screen, just like in the first depiction, and moving at an average speed of c.. This is a 3 dimensional geometric entity I'm trying to get across here, not some graph with numbers attached to it. Note - There is a self interaction that takes place here, think of the photon as having an inside and an outside, or positive on the outside, and negative on the inside, or vice versa, doesn't really matter which, only that opposites attract, and likes repel. With a little thought on your part, you will see how a photon can be self sustaining.

http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1270697539

 

[undidly]

The electric field is measured in volts/meter. It can also be defined by the force it exerts on a charged particle. It is the same thing.

The electric field is defined by Gauss's law - one of Maxwells equations.

There is no ambiguity of the meaning of the electric field in physics.

Not all sites say the electric field is in Volts per meter.I agree to the definition that it is.

Back to the colored graphic.
At the peak of what is called the electric field what is causing the magnetic field?.
Currents cause magnetic fields NOT voltages.

The electric field is not changing at this point so the displacement current would be zero.
So how can the magnetic field be maximum when the current is zero?.

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

The electric field is measured in volts/meter. It can also be defined by the force it exerts on a charged particle. It is the same thing.

The electric field is defined by Gauss's law - one of Maxwells equations.

There is no ambiguity of the meaning of the electric field in physics.

Not all sites say the electric field is in Volts per meter.I agree to the definition that it is.

Back to the colored graphic.
At the peak of what is called the electric field what is causing the magnetic field?.
Currents cause magnetic fields NOT voltages.

The electric field is not changing at this point so the displacement current would be zero.
So how can the magnetic field be maximum when the current is zero?.

How much current is there going to be in a true vacuum ? Do you think that E and M fields don't exist in a vacuum ?

 

[undidly]

The electric field is measured in volts/meter. It can also be defined by the force it exerts on a charged particle. It is the same thing.

The electric field is defined by Gauss's law - one of Maxwells equations.

There is no ambiguity of the meaning of the electric field in physics.

Not all sites say the electric field is in Volts per meter.I agree to the definition that it is.

Back to the colored graphic.
At the peak of what is called the electric field what is causing the magnetic field?.
Currents cause magnetic fields NOT voltages.

The electric field is not changing at this point so the displacement current would be zero.
So how can the magnetic field be maximum when the current is zero?.

How much current is there going to be in a true vacuum ? Do you think that E and M fields don't exist in a vacuum ?

How much current in a vacuum?.
As much as you want. A typical AM radio transmitter can can emit 100,000 watts. 100 amps at 1000 volts in air or vacuum.
Static E and M fields in a vacuum?.No problem.

A changing E field induces a current (displacement current) in the vacuum.
The current makes an M field.
A changing M field induces a voltage in the vacuum.
This voltage drives the displacement current for the next M field.
The drive each other with a 90 degree phase difference.This is what the topic is about.
The E M E M E M sequence is the photon.

 

[origin]

Back to the colored graphic.
At the peak of what is called the electric field what is causing the magnetic field?.
Currents cause magnetic fields NOT voltages.

Yes, a current produces a magnetic field because moving charges produce moving electric fields. Additionally a changing electric field produces a magnetic field and a changing magnetic field produces an electric field. That is how motors and generators work. A generator works by a changing magnetic field which produces an electric field which causes a current flow.

The electric field is not changing at this point so the displacement current would be zero.
So how can the magnetic field be maximum when the current is zero?.

There is no current there are only changing electric and magnetic fields. The fields are changing along the entire path. You can pick any point on the wave and say at an instantaneous point in time there is no change in the fields, so what, time is not frozen....

 

[origin]

How much current in a vacuum?.
As much as you want. A typical AM radio transmitter can can emit 100,000 watts. 100 amps at 1000 volts in air or vacuum.
Static E and M fields in a vacuum?.No problem.

A changing E field induces a current (displacement current) in the vacuum.
The current makes an M field.
A changing M field induces a voltage in the vacuum.
This voltage drives the displacement current for the next M field.
The drive each other with a 90 degree phase difference.This is what the topic is about.
The E M E M E M sequence is the photon.

If you think about this for just a second you will see the flaw in your thinking. There is NO current. It would be impossible.

Current is the movement of charged particles. EM waves move at the speed of, well EM waves (c). Matter cannot move at c, therefore there are no charged particles or current flow coming from a radio transmitter moving at the speed of light.

EM waves are not current, they are simply and soley photons that are a wave of changing electric and magnetic fields.

 

[undidly]

How much current in a vacuum?.
As much as you want. A typical AM radio transmitter can can emit 100,000 watts. 100 amps at 1000 volts in air or vacuum.
Static E and M fields in a vacuum?.No problem.

A changing E field induces a current (displacement current) in the vacuum.
The current makes an M field.
A changing M field induces a voltage in the vacuum.
This voltage drives the displacement current for the next M field.
The drive each other with a 90 degree phase difference.This is what the topic is about.
The E M E M E M sequence is the photon.

If you think about this for just a second you will see the flaw in your thinking. There is NO current. It would be impossible.

Current is the movement of charged particles. EM waves move at the speed of, well EM waves (c). Matter cannot move at c, therefore there are no charged particles or current flow coming from a radio transmitter moving at the speed of light.

EM waves are not current, they are simply and soley photons that are a wave of changing electric and magnetic fields.

In an earlier post I asked what were the units of electric field.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics ... rrent.html

This site says electric field is measured in AMPS.Near the top of the page.
Other sites say electric field is measured in Volts per meter.

If it is AMPS then the colored photon graphic is correct.
If it is Volts then the colored graphic is wrong.There is still current though empty space but it is 90 degrees out of
phase with the electric field.

Google "displacement current in free space".
It is the same as the current in a capacitor,phase shifted from the driving voltage.

 

[undidly]

There is no current there are only changing electric and magnetic fields. The fields are changing along the entire path. You can pick any point on the wave and say at an instantaneous point in time there is no change in the fields, so what, time is not frozen....

We both know time is not frozen.
You know very well I refer to the gradient of the field at that point.
At that point the gradient is zero.
No CHANGE of electric field means no induced magnetic field.
The graphic shows maximum magnetic at the time when it should show zero.

 

[origin]

In an earlier post I asked what were the units of electric field.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics ... rrent.html

This site says electric field is measured in AMPS.Near the top of the page.
Other sites say electric field is measured in Volts per meter.

You know it is truly frustrating trying to communicate with you. Why do you assuming the world is wrong and you are right. Why do you think all of these amazingly smart physicist are not as smart as you?

So I looked at your example and have determined that your english skills are on par with your physics skills:

From the site:

The current density [notice the term CURRENT DENSITY]

JD = eo (dE/dt)

(in MKS), where is the permittivity of free space and E is the electric field,having units of amps per square meter, and arising in Maxwell's generalization of Ampère's law

Notice the comma - current density has the units of amps/sq meter NOT the electric field.

If it is AMPS then the colored photon graphic is correct.

It is of course not amps but still correct.

If it is Volts then the colored graphic is wrong.There is still current though empty space but it is 90 degrees out of
phase with the electric field.

Wrong. Maxwell is right, all the EE's are right, all the physicists are right and anyone who has taken a series of calculus based physics courses in college are right and you are wrong. For crying out loud are you really that arrogant.

 

[undidly]

In an earlier post I asked what were the units of electric field.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics ... rrent.html

This site says electric field is measured in AMPS.Near the top of the page.
Other sites say electric field is measured in Volts per meter.

You know it is truly frustrating trying to communicate with you. Why do you assuming the world is wrong and you are right. Why do you think all of these amazingly smart physicist are not as smart as you?

So I looked at your example and have determined that your english skills are on par with your physics skills:

From the site:

The current density [notice the term CURRENT DENSITY]

JD = eo (dE/dt)

(in MKS), where is the permittivity of free space and E is the electric field,having units of amps per square meter, and arising in Maxwell's generalization of Ampère's law

Notice the comma - current density has the units of amps/sq meter NOT the electric field.

If it is AMPS then the colored photon graphic is correct.

It is of course not amps but still correct.

If it is Volts then the colored graphic is wrong.There is still current though empty space but it is 90 degrees out of
phase with the electric field.

Wrong. Maxwell is right, all the EE's are right, all the physicists are right and anyone who has taken a series of calculus based physics courses in college are right and you are wrong. For crying out loud are you really that arrogant.

Sir,I laugh at your insults.HA HA.

I never said Maxwell was wrong only that the photon illustrator was wrong.
Also your understanding of the Maxwell equations is wrong.

Please have look at this site. http://www.play-hookey.com/optics/trans ... _wave.html

I still do not know if the orange part of the waveform is intended to represent a current or a voltage.
Please tell me which you say it is.

 

[origin]

I never said Maxwell was wrong only that the photon illustrator was wrong.
Also your understanding of the Maxwell equations is wrong.

Yes, you do say that Maxwell is wrong you just don't know enough to realize it. Maxwell said that the E and B fields are in phase. My understanding of the Maxwell equations is right in line with what the science community understands.

Please have look at this site. http://www.play-hookey.com/optics/trans ... _wave.html

Again you have done a great job at finding a site that disagrees with the entire scientific community. This fellow is a crackpot. Go ahead and become one of his converts.

I still do not know if the orange part of the waveform is intended to represent a current or a voltage.
Please tell me which you say it is.

I have told you the electric field can be defined as

E = F/q Or the force in newtons (N) on a charge in coulombs (C) which simplifies to volts/m. It is not measure of current.


So, I noticed that you did not respond to the you idea about radio waves being a current flow - may I assume by your silence that you realize you were wrong?

I also noticed that you did not respond when I pointed out that you mistakenly thought that a legitimate site said an E field was measured in amps - may I assume by your silence that you realize you were also wrong on that point?

I am just trying to find out if any progress is being made here. :?

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Google "displacement current in free space".
It is the same as the current in a capacitor,phase shifted from the driving voltage.

And from the wiki resulting from the aforementioned Googling ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_current

In electromagnetism, displacement current is a quantity that is defined in terms of the rate of change of electric displacement field. Displacement current has the units of electric current density, and it has an associated magnetic field just as actual currents do. However it is not an electric current of moving charges, but a time-varying electric field.

So what's your point with this ? I admit to being caffeine deprived this AM.