# Photon details

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#### darkmatter4brains

##### Guest
origin":2ngysks2 said:
Yes, you do say that Maxwell is wrong you just don't know enough to realize it. Maxwell said that the E and B fields are in phase.

I don't know if this is what's going on here, but the E and B fields do oscillate orthogonal to each other and I've seen many people mistakenly refer to that as "out of phase"

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
Mee_n_Mac":2v10zrzp said:
undidly":2v10zrzp said:
Google "displacement current in free space".
It is the same as the current in a capacitor,phase shifted from the driving voltage.

And from the wiki resulting from the aforementioned Googling ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_current

In electromagnetism, displacement current is a quantity that is defined in terms of the rate of change of electric displacement field. Displacement current has the units of electric current density, and it has an associated magnetic field just as actual currents do. However it is not an electric current of moving charges, but a time-varying electric field.

So what's your point with this ? I admit to being caffeine deprived this AM.

Good stuff that caffeine.I like it too.

Here is the point.

""Displacement current has the units of electric current density, and it has an
associated magnetic field (physically at right angles to the displacement current)
just as actual currents do.""

The magnetic field is in phase with the displacement CURRENT.

"" However it is not an electric current of moving charges, but a time-varying electric field.[/i]""
No moving charges but makes a magnetic field.

The magnetic field induces a voltage in proportion to magnetic fields rate of change.
The voltage drives the displacement current as it would drive the current through any other capacitor,90 degrees phase advanced.
I know there is not current flow of charged particles,just the warping and relaxing of empty space.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
darkmatter4brains":399c1s9d said:
origin":399c1s9d said:
Yes, you do say that Maxwell is wrong you just don't know enough to realize it. Maxwell said that the E and B fields are in phase.

I don't know if this is what's going on here, but the E and B fields do oscillate orthogonal to each other and I've seen many people mistakenly refer to that as "out of phase"

I am sure you are right about that.

This topic is about a phase difference along the time axis.

I have checked many sites for info.

The sites that say E and M are 90 degrees out of phase do explain why.
The sites that say E and M are in phase just say it is so,but do not explain why.
The explanations of how an in phase E and M photon can propagate are very unlikely.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
undidly":3gkpw7t9 said:
This topic is about a phase difference along the time axis.

I have checked many sites for info.

The sites that say E and M are 90 degrees out of phase do explain why.
The sites that say E and M are in phase just say it is so,but do not explain why.
The explanations of how an in phase E and M photon can propagate are very unlikely.

It is clearly hopeless, you appear incapable of admitting you are wrong regardless of the evidence presented to you. You can revel in your ignorance.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
origin":yswd7l4x said:
undidly":yswd7l4x said:
This topic is about a phase difference along the time axis.

I have checked many sites for info.

The sites that say E and M are 90 degrees out of phase do explain why.
The sites that say E and M are in phase just say it is so,but do not explain why.
The explanations of how an in phase E and M photon can propagate are very unlikely.

It is clearly hopeless, you appear incapable of admitting you are wrong regardless of the evidence presented to you. You can revel in your ignorance.

Thanks for those kind words.
I have a few questions which I will frame so that the answer can be a simple yes or no.

If the photon is as the colored graphic shows then do the electric and magnetic fields (those which are in phase) cause
or influence each other in any way.
To be more specific,do the electric field of the first wave and the magnetic field of the first wave influence each other.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
undidly":2serpydx said:
If the photon is as the colored graphic shows then do the electric and magnetic fields (those which are in phase) cause
or influence each other in any way.
To be more specific,do the electric field of the first wave and the magnetic field of the first wave influence each other.

I don't know why I am bothering but I'll play,

Yes.

As shown by: V(bar) E = -dB/dt

Where V(bar) is the curl operator
dB/dt is a partial derivative of the magnetic field density with respect to time.

A changing electric field produces a magnetic field and a changing magnetic field produces an electric field.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
origin":376dhs8j said:
undidly":376dhs8j said:
If the photon is as the colored graphic shows then do the electric and magnetic fields (those which are in phase) cause
or influence each other in any way.
To be more specific,do the electric field of the first wave and the magnetic field of the first wave influence each other.

I don't know why I am bothering but I'll play,

Yes.

As shown by: V(bar) E = -dB/dt

Where V(bar) is the curl operator
dB/dt is a partial derivative of the magnetic field density with respect to time.

A changing electric field produces a magnetic field and a changing magnetic field produces an electric field.

Sorry I made a mistake and asked two questions ,cause and /or influence.
I should have just asked if the electric field and/or the magnetic field CAUSE each other.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
undidly":1lirw5da said:
origin":1lirw5da said:
undidly":1lirw5da said:
If the photon is as the colored graphic shows then do the electric and magnetic fields (those which are in phase) cause
or influence each other in any way.
To be more specific,do the electric field of the first wave and the magnetic field of the first wave influence each other.

I don't know why I am bothering but I'll play,

Yes.

As shown by: V(bar) E = -dB/dt

Where V(bar) is the curl operator
dB/dt is a partial derivative of the magnetic field density with respect to time.

A changing electric field produces a magnetic field and a changing magnetic field produces an electric field.

Sorry I made a mistake and asked two questions ,cause and /or influence.
I should have just asked if the electric field and/or the magnetic field CAUSE each other.

Yes

I did not look at the youtube video so I am not refering to anything in the video I am just answering your question.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
To origin

Sorry I made a mistake and asked two questions ,cause and /or influence.
I should have just asked if the electric field and/or the magnetic field CAUSE each other.

I don't know why I am bothering but I'll play,

Yes.
------------------------------------
Thanks.
We agree on that.

Does the electric field or the magnetic field of the first half cycle CAUSE the electric field or magnetic field of the second half cycle.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
undidly":3msrzv8c said:
To origin

Sorry I made a mistake and asked two questions ,cause and /or influence.
I should have just asked if the electric field and/or the magnetic field CAUSE each other.

I don't know why I am bothering but I'll play,

Yes.
------------------------------------
Thanks.
We agree on that.

Does the electric field or the magnetic field of the first half cycle CAUSE the electric field or magnetic field of the second half cycle.

If you mean does the electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the magnetic field in the second half of the cycle the answer is no.

Is it really necessary to drag these questions out in tiny little snippets asking for yes or no answers? It is clear that you are trying to trap me into - I don't know making a misstatement or something. It seems it would be better to try to get some knowledge than to try to make some point, this is suppose to be science not politics.

No matter what your point is and not matter what I say the electric field and the magnetic field are in phase - people a helluva lot smarter than you are me have already proven it over and over!!

M

#### MeteorWayne

##### Guest
This thread is also soon to depart the Physics forum.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
MeteorWayne":2g8n3fv0 said:
This thread is also soon to depart the Physics forum.

I would agree the point of this thread appears to be to try and disprove maxwells equations describing classical electrical theory by using the tried a true technique of 'I don't care what the math, observations or experiemnts prove - that just don't seem right'.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
MeteorWayne":aj117pfe said:
This thread is also soon to depart the Physics forum.

Sorry ,not clear to me.
Is this thread to be moved or killed?.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
origin":15tbrf79 said:
undidly":15tbrf79 said:
To origin

Sorry I made a mistake and asked two questions ,cause and /or influence.
I should have just asked if the electric field and/or the magnetic field CAUSE each other.

I don't know why I am bothering but I'll play,

Yes.
------------------------------------
Thanks.
We agree on that.

Does the electric field or the magnetic field of the first half cycle CAUSE the electric field or magnetic field of the second half cycle.

If you mean does the electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the magnetic field in the second half of the cycle the answer is no.

Is it really necessary to drag these questions out in tiny little snippets asking for yes or no answers? It is clear that you are trying to trap me into - I don't know making a misstatement or something. It seems it would be better to try to get some knowledge than to try to make some point, this is suppose to be science not politics.

No matter what your point is and not matter what I say the electric field and the magnetic field are in phase - people a helluva lot smarter than you are me have already proven it over and over!!

So now you do not want to play?.
Trap you?.
I thought the idea was to find any errors in understanding by anyone.

So far I conclude that Maxwells equations are right but the photon illustrator may be wrong.
Also that the relationship between electric field and displacement current is not clear.
I already asked directly the meaning of electric field,is it a voltage or a displacement current?.

Many questions but here is the next one.
How does the second half of the photon have exactly the right amplitude and duration and reversed polarity to
cancel the first half of the photon.This is required for the photon to be electrically and magnetically neutral.

You said NO to the question "does the first half cycle cause the second half" so how is it just right.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
Many questions but here is the next one.
How does the second half of the photon have exactly the right amplitude and duration and reversed polarity to
cancel the first half of the photon.This is required for the photon to be electrically and magnetically neutral.

Huh? A photon is an oscillation electric field and an orthogonal oscillating magnetic field that are in phase. The frequency of the photon is determined by its energy. The amplitude as you call it is the strength of the field. They do not need to know anything - why would the frequency or strength of the fields change?

You said NO to the question "does the first half cycle cause the second half" so how is it just right.
See this is exactly the type of crap I knew you would do. I said:

If you mean does the electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the magnetic field in the second half of the cycle the answer is no.

What I said is correct. Assume electric field in the first half a cycle is [+] this results in a magnetic field that is [-.] Does the [+] electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the [+] magnetic field in the second half of the cycle? No, the [-] electric field in the second half of the cycle causes the [+] magnetic field.

You do realize that this electrical theory has been around for 140 years and there are millions of people that have studied these equations. It is astounding to me that someone who obviously has no meaningful education in physics thinks they have it all figured out and have closed their mind to the possiblity that they just may be wrong. :roll:

Edited to add: As I said before the maxwell equations are in complete agreement with the EM wave graphic. When you say, I agree with the EM radiation solution to maxwells equation but think the illustration is wrong" it just makes you look silly.

M

#### MeteorWayne

##### Guest
undidly":2x4o8hay said:
MeteorWayne":2x4o8hay said:
This thread is also soon to depart the Physics forum.

Sorry ,not clear to me.
Is this thread to be moved or killed?.

We don't kill threads here. We move them to the appropriate forum.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
origin":1swuuvz0 said:
Many questions but here is the next one.
How does the second half of the photon have exactly the right amplitude and duration and reversed polarity to
cancel the first half of the photon.This is required for the photon to be electrically and magnetically neutral.

Huh? A photon is an oscillation electric field and an orthogonal oscillating magnetic field that are in phase. The frequency of the photon is determined by its energy. The amplitude as you call it is the strength of the field. They do not need to know anything - why would the frequency or strength of the fields change?

You said NO to the question "does the first half cycle cause the second half" so how is it just right.
See this is exactly the type of crap I knew you would do. I said:

If you mean does the electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the magnetic field in the second half of the cycle the answer is no.

What I said is correct. Assume electric field in the first half a cycle is [+] this results in a magnetic field that is [-.] Does the [+] electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the [+] magnetic field in the second half of the cycle? No, the [-] electric field in the second half of the cycle causes the [+] magnetic field.

You do realize that this electrical theory has been around for 140 years and there are millions of people that have studied these equations. It is astounding to me that someone who obviously has no meaningful education in physics thinks they have it all figured out and have closed their mind to the possiblity that they just may be wrong. :roll:

Edited to add: As I said before the maxwell equations are in complete agreement with the EM wave graphic. When you say, I agree with the EM radiation solution to maxwells equation but think the illustration is wrong" it just makes you look silly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

""If you mean does the electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the magnetic field in the second half of the cycle the answer is no.

What I said is correct. Assume electric field in the first half a cycle is [+] this results in a magnetic field that is [-.] Does the [+] electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the [+] magnetic field in the second half of the cycle? No, the [-] electric field in the second half of the cycle causes the [+] magnetic field.""

You had to say that because you also say the E and M are in phase and do not overlap the next wave.(both zero
together).

If the first half wave of the photon does not interact ,or cause,the second half then how can the second half
exactly follow the first half for 100 million light years distance and 100 million years in time?.
If the first and second parts separate they each become electrically charged magnetic monopoles.

Why do all the waves in the photon follow each other?.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
undidly":1aqzlmng said:
You had to say that because you also say the E and M are in phase and do not overlap the next wave.(both zero together).
It isn't so much that I say they are in phase it is that the entire educated world says they are in phase. This is a fact that has been known for 140 years.

If the first half wave of the photon does not interact ,or cause,the second half then how can the second half
exactly follow the first half for 100 million light years distance and 100 million years in time?.

What are you trying to say? What you are saying makes no sense.

If the first and second parts separate they each become electrically charged magnetic monopoles.

Why do all the waves in the photon follow each other?.

What do you mean by all the waves in a photon?

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
origin":1q4gkjob said:
undidly":1q4gkjob said:
You had to say that because you also say the E and M are in phase and do not overlap the next wave.(both zero together).
It isn't so much that I say they are in phase it is that the entire educated world says they are in phase. This is a fact that has been known for 140 years.

If the first half wave of the photon does not interact ,or cause,the second half then how can the second half
exactly follow the first half for 100 million light years distance and 100 million years in time?.

What are you trying to say? What you are saying makes no sense.

If the first and second parts separate they each become electrically charged magnetic monopoles.

Why do all the waves in the photon follow each other?.

What do you mean by all the waves in a photon?

So you have forgotten what you said.
You said the first wave does not cause the second wave which has the opposite polarity .
So you agree that a photon has at least two waves.
Why do you ask ""What do you mean by all the waves in a photon?""

I mean the waves shown in the graphic.How many in a photon?.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
undidly":319o8rai said:
So you have forgotten what you said.
You said the first wave does not cause the second wave which has the opposite polarity .
So you agree that a photon has at least two waves.

I did not say that. Do not put words in my mouth. I am sorry you do not get this but don't try to imply I am a partner in your unholy quest!

Why do you ask ""What do you mean by all the waves in a photon?""

I mean the waves shown in the graphic.How many in a photon?.

A photon has wave attributes. A (single) light wave is composed of an alternating electric and magnetic field that are in phase and have the opposite polarity. BECAUSE they are in phase, they propagate through space. If they were not in phase they would not propagate through space.

Take a look at this site on Maxwells equations. This is, IMO, one of the best layperson explanations of the equations, along with the actual math, that I have seen.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
origin":rrpppq49 said:
undidly":rrpppq49 said:
So you have forgotten what you said.
You said the first wave does not cause the second wave which has the opposite polarity .
So you agree that a photon has at least two waves.

I did not say that. Do not put words in my mouth. I am sorry you do not get this but don't try to imply I am a partner in your unholy quest!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From you april 14 1:41
If you mean does the electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the magnetic field in the second half of the cycle the answer is no.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No matter what your point is and not matter what I say the electric field and the magnetic field are in phase - people a helluva lot smarter than you are me have already proven it over and over!!

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origin
star

Posts: 1992
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 1999 4:00 pm

Why do you ask ""What do you mean by all the waves in a photon?""

I mean the waves shown in the graphic.How many in a photon?.

A photon has wave attributes. A (single) light wave is composed of an alternating electric and magnetic field that are in phase and have the opposite polarity. BECAUSE they are in phase, they propagate through space. If they were not in phase they would not propagate through space.

Take a look at this site on Maxwells equations. This is, IMO, one of the best layperson explanations of the equations, along with the actual math, that I have seen.

"" BECAUSE they are in phase, they propagate through space. If they were not in phase they would not propagate through space.""

YES.
But again you do not say what is in phase with the M field.You just say electric field.Is that a current or a voltage?.

Thanks for the site "Maxwells equations.

Here is a part that that gets half way to what I am saying.

""The problem lay with the definition of current, I . Today, engineers are comfortable with thinking of current traveling through circuits either by way of conduction, by capacitive coupling or by induction. Faraday dealt with induction. Maxwell’s contribution to was to separate “conduction” current from “capacitive” current, the latter which he called “displacement” current.""

The right hand rule (for the movement) involves the Magnetic field and a CURRENT.

The is NO conduction current in a photon but there is DISPLACEMENT current.
The displacement CURRENT causes the magnetic field and is proportional to the MAGNITUDE of the current.
The magnetic field is in phase with the current.

The orange colored part of the graphic is the displacement current.
On the graphic it is called electric field.That is the mistake.
An electric field is a voltage.
The graphic does not show the electric field.

8 hours later.

Maxwell is on page 16 17 18 19.
It does mention current,electric field and magnetic field .
Only two are shown on the graphic.
The usage of "electric field " is not as implied by the graphic.
Google oscilloscope and also cyclotron to get the standard meaning of electric field.

O

#### origin

##### Guest
undidly":3gq6pifi said:
origin":3gq6pifi said:
undidly":3gq6pifi said:
So you have forgotten what you said.
You said the first wave does not cause the second wave which has the opposite polarity .
So you agree that a photon has at least two waves.

I did not say that. Do not put words in my mouth. I am sorry you do not get this but don't try to imply I am a partner in your unholy quest!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From you april 14 1:41
If you mean does the electric field in the first half of the cycle cause the magnetic field in the second half of the cycle the answer is no.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep I said that, where does it say that the electric field is a wave unto itself. I didn't say that because that is wrong. The two wave theory is purely an idea from your mind born from ignorance.

But again you do not say what is in phase with the M field.You just say electric field.Is that a current or a voltage?.

And with that unbelievable statement I am done :roll:

I am stuned that you would ask me that, Lets review:

You: There is ambiguity about the meaning of "electric field".
Some sites say it is measured in Volts and others say it measured in Amps.

Me: The electric field is measured in volts/meter. It can also be defined by the force it exerts on a charged particle. It is the same thing

You: In an earlier post I asked what were the units of electric field.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics ... rrent.html
This site says electric field is measured in AMPS.Near the top of the page.
Other sites say electric field is measured in Volts per meter.

Me: current density has the units of amps/sq meter NOT the electric field.

You: I still do not know if the orange part of the waveform is intended to represent a current or a voltage.
Please tell me which you say it is.

Me: I have told you the electric field can be defined as

E = F/q Or the force in newtons (N) on a charge in coulombs (C) which simplifies to volts/m. It is not measure of current.

4 Times! Come on, you ask me the same freaking question 4 times. I would have a better chance of having a reasonable discussion with my cat!

Let somebody else try to get through to you - it is a waste of time.

U

#### undidly

##### Guest
To origin.

As long as you believe that an electric FIELD causes a magnetic field then you do not understand even the basics.

O

#### origin

##### Guest

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