Photon details

[origin]

http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/ntnujava/index.php?topic=1555.msg5860#msg5860

90 degrees out of phase.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Holy crap, you are really a piece of work, I can't believe you accuse me of not understanding this stuff!

OK here is what is so funny, that graphic is showing how two polarized waves interact. If you look closely on the right side of the graphic there are little check boxes you have the electric field checked for 2 waves (notice the 'E'). So all you are doing is making the electric field of 2 different light waves out of phase. You can't even understand the graphics on these sites let alone the concepts. :roll: So now check the little boxes with the 'M' and you will see the magnetic field. Lets see if you can get the magnetic field out of phase with the electric field.

All that work to find that graphic and it only proves my point again.

 

[undidly]

http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/ntnujava/index.php?topic=1555.msg5860#msg5860

90 degrees out of phase.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Holy crap, you are really a piece of work, I can't believe you accuse me of not understanding this stuff!

OK here is what is so funny, that graphic is showing how two polarized waves interact. If you look closely on the right side of the graphic there are little check boxes you have the electric field checked for 2 waves (notice the 'E'). So all you are doing is making the electric field of 2 different light waves out of phase. You can't even understand the graphics on these sites let alone the concepts. :roll: So now check the little boxes with the 'M' and you will see the magnetic field. Lets see if you can get the magnetic field out of phase with the electric field.

All that work to find that graphic and it only proves my point again.

I looked closely and YOU ARE RIGHT.
The waves that are 90 degrees out of phase are from different photons.
I can't get the E and M out of phase in either photon.(Of course I can't ,it is drawn not to.)

""I can't believe you accuse me of not understanding this stuff!""
It is difficult to get an answer from you.

Can we at least find something we agree on?.
So I have this battery,only 1 volt.
I connect 2 insulated wires to it ,one at each end.
The other end of the wires have the conductors exposed and are 1 meter apart.
I say there is an ELECTRIC FIELD of 1 volt per meter between the ends of the wires.
No current flows.There is no magnetic field.

What say you.

If we go step by step you can find the part where I go wrong and then explain it to me.

50/794

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Can we at least find something we agree on?.
So I have this battery,only 1 volt.
I connect 2 insulated wires to it ,one at each end.
The other end of the wires have the conductors exposed and are 1 meter apart.
I say there is an ELECTRIC FIELD of 1 volt per meter between the ends of the wires.
No current flows.There is no magnetic field.

What say you.

If we go step by step you can find the part where I go wrong and then explain it to me.

50/794

So far so good.

 

[undidly]

Can we at least find something we agree on?.
So I have this battery,only 1 volt.
I connect 2 insulated wires to it ,one at each end.
The other end of the wires have the conductors exposed and are 1 meter apart.
I say there is an ELECTRIC FIELD of 1 volt per meter between the ends of the wires.
No current flows.There is no magnetic field.

What say you.

If we go step by step you can find the part where I go wrong and then explain it to me.

50/794

So far so good.

Next experiment.
The battery has an internal resistance of 1 ohm.
The wires have negligible resistance.
I join together the ends of the wires.
I say that a CURRENT of 1 amp flows though the wires.
There is NO ELECTRIC FIELD.
There is a MAGNETIC FIELD around the wire,

Again ,what say you,origin or Mee_n_Mack.
Better ,origin AND Mee_n_Mac.

52/1014

 

[Mee_n_Mac]

Next experiment.
The battery has an internal resistance of 1 ohm.
The wires have negligible resistance.
I join together the ends of the wires.
I say that a CURRENT of 1 amp flows though the wires.
There is NO ELECTRIC FIELD.
There is a MAGNETIC FIELD around the wire,

Again ,what say you,origin or Mee_n_Mack.
Better ,origin AND Mee_n_Mac.

52/1014

If by "no electric field" you mean no field (or a negligible one) across the wires ... I agree.

 

[undidly]

Next experiment.
The battery has an internal resistance of 1 ohm.
The wires have negligible resistance.
I join together the ends of the wires.
I say that a CURRENT of 1 amp flows though the wires.
There is NO ELECTRIC FIELD.
There is a MAGNETIC FIELD around the wire,

Again ,what say you,origin or Mee_n_Mack.
Better ,origin AND Mee_n_Mac.

52/1014

If by "no electric field" you mean no field (or a negligible one) across the wires ... I agree.

Yes I do mean that.
From the negligible voltage developed across the negligible resistance of the wires.
That is why I said "The wires have negligible resistance."

The two experiments have been with static fields.
Changing fields later.
First the meaning of the text which is with the graphic that is the subject of this topic.

The graphic is here. http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/s2.htm

In the third paragraph he says
""A changing magnetic field creates electrical current---an electric field.""

Does he mean that an electric field is a current?.
This is a wrong usage of these terms.
If the movement and direction of the photon is as Fleming says with his right hand rule then the the orange part of the
graphic must be a current.

If it is an electric field and not a current then the right hand rule does not apply.That makes the graphic wrong.
If it is a current then the text on the graphic which says electric field is wrong. That makes the graphic wrong.

Please comment on this so far.
If I misunderstand something please say ,so that I do not go too far in a wrong direction of thinking.
I am not challenging Maxwell or Hertz.They are being misunderstood.

I will get onto the time phase relation ship of changing (oscillating) fields depending on any replies.

54/1080

 

[origin]

The graphic is here. http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/s2.htm

In the third paragraph he says
""A changing magnetic field creates electrical current---an electric field.""

Does he mean that an electric field is a current?.

No. He is saying that a changing magnetic field produces an electric field. The electric field is measured in volts per meter. The electric field is a difference in (electrical) potential this induces a current.

Untill you can understand this there is no reason to go further. After 3 pages you still think and electric field is current, but it is not.

It is analogous to water flowing down hill (current). The water flows down hill because of the difference in height (electric field). The difference in height is not the water flowing and the water flowing is not the height difference.

Lets just get through this most basic part other wise any ideas built on the wrong base will be meaningless.

What do you require to prove to yourself that an electric field is not current, so we can move on?

 

[undidly]

The graphic is here. http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/s2.htm

In the third paragraph he says
""A changing magnetic field creates electrical current---an electric field.""

Does he mean that an electric field is a current?.

No. He is saying that a changing magnetic field produces an electric field. The electric field is measured in volts per meter. The electric field is a difference in (electrical) potential this induces a current.

Untill you can understand this there is no reason to go further. After 3 pages you still think and electric field is current, but it is not.

It is analogous to water flowing down hill (current). The water flows down hill because of the difference in height (electric field). The difference in height is not the water flowing and the water flowing is not the height difference.

Lets just get through this most basic part other wise any ideas built on the wrong base will be meaningless.

What do you require to prove to yourself that an electric field is not current, so we can move on?

""Untill you can understand this there is no reason to go further. After 3 pages you still think and electric field is current, but it is not.""

----------------I have said many times that an electric field is NOT a current.------------------
I know that, you know that , the illustrator does not know that.

""Lets just get through this most basic part other wise any ideas built on the wrong base will be meaningless. ""
YES .Let us sort this out.We are near to the misunderstanding.

The graphic shows in orange what it calls an electric field and another at right angles ,the magnetic field.
Electric fields do NOT make magnetic fields.
A changing electric field induces a current (in a conductor) that is in proportion to the RATE OF CHANGE of the electric field.

A changing electric field induces a current in empty space (a displacement current ,not a conduction current).
The displacement current has a magnetic field just as a current in a conductor.
The displacement current and the magnetic field are in phase.

Are you saying that the induced displacement current is in phase with the changing electric field?.

Where on the graphic would be the current if it was shown?.

57/1108

 

[origin]

""Untill you can understand this there is no reason to go further. After 3 pages you still think and electric field is current, but it is not.""

----------------I have said many times that an electric field is NOT a current.------------------

I know that, you know that , the illustrator does not know that.

I am going to take that as you now understand that an electric field is expressed in volts/meter, and not a current.

""Lets just get through this most basic part other wise any ideas built on the wrong base will be meaningless. ""
YES .Let us sort this out.We are near to the misunderstanding.

Don't get my hopes up.

The graphic shows in orange what it calls an electric field and another at right angles ,the magnetic field.
Electric fields do NOT make magnetic fields.

That is correct, however a changing electric field does induce a magnetic field.

A changing electric field induces a current (in a conductor) that is in proportion to the RATE OF CHANGE of the electric field.

This is not correct a constant electric field will induce a current. Just like a constant voltage will induce a current.

A changing electric field induces a current in empty space (a displacement current ,not a conduction current).
The displacement current has a magnetic field just as a current in a conductor.
The displacement current and the magnetic field are in phase.

So very close! The displacement current and the magnetic field ARE in phase. Now we are geting somewhere! The trick is what is a displacement current. Let me give a very simple definition of displacement current.

A displacement current is a time varing electrical field it is not really a current at all. Which means of course the that the electric field and the magentic field variations with time are in phase. Don't believe me; look at wiki this is a very good explanation.

Where on the graphic would be the current if it was shown?.

There is no current there is only a time varing electric and magnetic filed. Displacement current is an unfortunate term for a time varing electric field - it was coined by Maxwell.

 

[origin]

Where on the graphic would be the current if it was shown?.

Let's go ahead and address this and see if we can clear up this misconception, while we wait for you to come up with a new reason why the rest of humanity is wrong about electrical theory.

What is current? I think you will agree that current is the movement of charged particles. In a copper wire it is the movement of electrons due to a difference in electrical potential across the wire. The important part is that it is the movement of charged particles.

Light propagates through a vacuum. You know this because we get light from the sun and space is very near a perfect vacuum. That of course means there are no charged particle to move so there cannot be a current.

 

[undidly]

Where on the graphic would be the current if it was shown?.

Let's go ahead and address this and see if we can clear up this misconception, while we wait for you to come up with a new reason why the rest of humanity is wrong about electrical theory.

What is current? I think you will agree that current is the movement of charged particles. In a copper wire it is the movement of electrons due to a difference in electrical potential across the wire. The important part is that it is the movement of charged particles.

Light propagates through a vacuum. You know this because we get light from the sun and space is very near a perfect vacuum. That of course means there are no charged particle to move so there cannot be a current.

At last.
Now we get to the point of it all.

It seems you do not know about displacement current.

It is the alternating current which flows though capacitors and happens because the charged particles in the atoms
of the dielectric move small distances ,are DISPLACED from their normal positions in the atom.
Capacitors do not support conduction current which can be continuous.

Maxwell worked out that there was a small displacement current even if all the dielectric was removed from the capacitor.
There remains the capacitance of spacetime which ,like capacitors,supports DISPLACEMENT current but not CONDUCTION current.
Displacement current has a magnetic field just as does conduction current.

All this arguing and you do not even understand displacement current.
You have no hope of answering what was to be the next question.

16/1128

 

[origin]

All this arguing and you do not even understand displacement current.
You have no hope of answering what was to be the next question.

Well then I guess we are done; the entire scientific community and I will just have to live our lives in ignorance believing what those silly illustrators incorrectly drew, never suspecting that you have the answer.

 

[origin]

I had a several page discussion with him on light. He believes that light is made up of an alternating magnetic field and an alternating current and they are out of phase. It appears that he thinks this is shown in the maxwell equations and he even thinks that this is what physicists believe. When I asked him why the graphics show a time varying electric field and a time varying magnetic field in phase, his reply was that the illustrators got it wrong. I asked if every physics book and every illustration on the net concering light waves was a mistake by the illustators - he said yep.

Origin.
Wrong .

Sorry if I misunderstood you, what parts of the statement are wrong?

 

[MeteorWayne]

Please take this discussion to that that thread.

MW

 

[origin]

Wayne, I thought this was a bit off topic to the energy faster than light thread so I brought it here to where the discussion originated on photons - I will be happy to go to the other thread.

Ignore this post and my previous post on this thread - if in fact there is anyone else who has not ignored it.

 

[MeteorWayne]

OK, I'll reread everything later, and try and decide what is best.

 

[origin]

OK, I'll reread everything later, and try and decide what is best.

Good lord, don't reread this crap!! I copied it to the other thread and it should be no problem; undidly will talk in circles, I will rant and rave and all will be right in the world!